T80030 Posted January 29, 2010 Share Posted January 29, 2010 Hi Guys I`m on the lookout for RAF vehicle markings for my MW Bedford Would anyone out there have a photo showing the rear of an MW just so i can see how the markings are laid out (Roundel etc) also any details specific to 617 Sqn :cool2: Need dimensions for the Roundel as well please Thanks Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryH57 Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 (edited) Dave, Is your Bedford an MWD with GS body or one with a Signals body. I could put you in touch with Julian Mitchell who owns the Fordson 15 cwt Light Warning vehicle recently featured in CMV magazine. He has done a lot of reasearch on colours and markings. Also have you searched this forum on RAF colours - as your 617 Sqn MW would not have been RAF blue after 1941 to the end of WW2 See this thread http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?9337-RAF-Blue-in-WW2-Fact-or-Fiction Edited January 30, 2010 by LarryH57 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Unless in the tactical role Sqns were allocated vehicles from the Station's MT establishment. 617 was not a tactical sqn, So on paper they never had their own vehicles. You need to choose a date; 617 moved around, formed at Scampton march 1943 then to Coningsby then Woodhall . Once you choose a date look to see where they were based, then see which group in bomber command they were in at the time. Off side (UK offside) of the vehicle at the front would be a roundal 9inch dia. above it should be a Command /group marking it will be B/1 or B/3 or B/5 -- although I think during WW2 period 617 was always a 5 group sqn. therefore B/5. a 9inch yellow bridge plate marked 3 would also be on the front. On the back would be the command /group mark on nearside, no roundal on the rear but a speed limit warning . Colours were constantly changing during WW2 but By the time 617 was formed SCC 2 with SCC1a disruptive would have been the most common colour combination, with a pattern to MTP 46. although many vehicles would still be in Khaki Green No 3 with Dark Tarmac distruptive. TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T80030 Posted February 1, 2010 Author Share Posted February 1, 2010 Hi Guys Thanks for the replies my reasons for looking for 617 Sqn markings is that (Fingers crossed) they may be looking for extras for the Dambusters remake and if my MW`s wearing the right clothes it could make things easier My MW is a 1944 Water Cart that has been rebodied as a GS but is ex RAF (11553711) ex RNZAF and NZ Army Thanks Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Signals Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Just found this pic on the web http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured/?pp_album=main&pp_cat=default&pp_image=dday04.jpg that shows what appears to be an MW from the back, along with a load of Stirlings(?). This is the first contemporary photo I've found that shows one from the rear. It has what appears to be the marking D/3(4?). D is the letter given to designate 'Allied Expeditionary Air Force' and this fits in with the pic. Anyone any ideas as to the '3(4?)? The 'max speed 35mph' is self explanatory:-D, if a bit bit big eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Signals Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Further to the above, I now reckon the marking is a badly painted D/38, 38 Group glider towing, parachutist duties etc., this makes more sense and fits in with everything else in the picture. Everything except of course what appears to be a chap wearing a Royal Navy type big collar at the left of the group of three men behind the tractor wheel. Any ideas what it actually is he is wearing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Hi Duncan, its D/38 38 Group being the group that supported airborne forces; I am trying to ID the aerodrome the Stirlings towing Horsa gliders operated from 3 of 38 Groups aerodromes. I am still beavering away at my project, I note D =AEAF in Robertson's book but the letter hasn't appeared in any of the AMOs or the AP 3090 as a Command code; however I have scratched my head previously over the use of D as I have seen other period( around june 44)shots with D in use. AEAF wasn't a Command it was a higher formation. It was composed of 2TAF and Air Defence of Great Britian (ADGB) as it component RAF Commands, we know beyond doubt 2 TAF carried the TAF /** marking and according to AP 3090 AEAF carried AEAF with no / or number. In late 1943 Fighter command was disbanded , some of its sqns ( mainly those in the ground attack-close support role)transferred to 2TAF. A new Command known as ADGB was created , this took in the residue of previously Fighter Command units and also sqns from Bomber Command and Glider Sqns that were going to directly support the landings and subsequent operations from aerodromes in UK. These bomber units mostly with Halifax & Stirling aircraft in the glider towing role formed part of 38 group. Everytime I have seen the D/38 marking I have delved but hit a brick wall, I can only draw the conclusion that D was adopted for a short period by ADGB before they reverted to using F which in late 1944 is promulgated in AP 3090. Unfortunately lots of warts are now apparent in Robertsons book but the access to material is so much easier now we can only continue to consider it still as the "bible" on RAF MT. If I unearth any more on that D or any RAF MW shots I will post them I think it is a very sad fact that few if any films about the RAF in WW2 are in the least accurate over the vehicles etc they use. I know Brian Baxter (REME museum etc) has torn his hair out many times over the years trying to give a correct steer. I recently saw some pages from Flight magazine archives on the making of the Dam Busters all the vehicles had black wings this was a feature introduced for a few years in 1946 when we reverted to a peacetime colour scheme. http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1954/1954%20-%201789.html?search=film. the dam busters TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Signals Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Cheers Ted! As always, some top class info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan turner (RIP) Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 looks like views I have seen of TArrant Rushton which was used for d day gliders and tugs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Further to the above, I now reckon the marking is a badly painted D/38, 38 Group glider towing, parachutist duties etc., this makes more sense and fits in with everything else in the picture. Everything except of course what appears to be a chap wearing a Royal Navy type big collar at the left of the group of three men behind the tractor wheel. Any ideas what it actually is he is wearing? Duncan been trying to ID the drome and been reading a site about 190 sqn at RAF Dunmow A chap who was an electrician on 190 noted a numer of Fleet air arm personel ( tradesmen) were attached to them to bolster manpower as preperations for D Day got underway. So i reckon the chap with the big collar could be one of these salty seadogs ?? TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 looks like views I have seen of TArrant Rushton which was used for d day gliders and tugs Alan from what I can find Stirlings towed Gliders out of Dunmow, Rivenhall and wethersfield, With Halfax towing gliders from Earls Colne and Tarrant Rushdon. Something funny is the way the aircraft are parked, normally the gliders were parked nose to tail, with the towing aircraft parked either side at 45 degrees . In the subject picture no room for the gliders ?? I am wondering if notwithstanding the title this may be Market Garden ? there are people dotted around wearing overcoats. Stirlings seem to have been used by the Pathfinders 21st Ind Pathfinder company . TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Signals Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Ted. Dont know if you have seen this site but, if not, maybe some of the info on here might help you. Quite a few other pages besides this one. http://www.raf38group.org/history Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Signals Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Duncan been trying to ID the drome and been reading a site about 190 sqn at RAF Dunmow A chap who was an electrician on 190 noted a numer of Fleet air arm personel ( tradesmen) were attached to them to bolster manpower as preperations for D Day got underway. So i reckon the chap with the big collar could be one of these salty seadogs ??TED That is as good an explanation as any Ted, it is fascinating how all these little bits of information can just drop together sometimes. I did wonder about the number of greatcoats but put it down to maybe being an early morning and associated with the bad pre- D Day weather they had been having; but it could well be a later operation - possibly even Varsity? Or are there specific reasons for discounting that from the pic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 (edited) Hi Duncan I hadn't considered Varsity should have my Dad crossed with 15th Scottish Div at Xanten. On one of his visits when I was stationed in Germany I took him to the exact spot where his field company (REs ) put an assault bridge accross under fire. What struck me as odd was the way the aircraft were parked, so I looked to see if Stirlings were used by 38 group in a non towing role. the Pathfinders from 21st Coy dropped from Albemarles for D Day, so I then looked at Market Garden and found the Pathfinders were from 22nd Coy and they were dropped from Stirlings. Of course the picture could have been prior to everything forming up. I have found that the titles accompanying many photos on many of these media resourses websites are often far from accurate; searching last night I found at least one other site with this set and another with a similar set; there's a couple on them with clearly wrong titles. Still one thing is for certain that is an MW its mark is D/38 and it had a 35 mph speed limit. I must try and find some RAF piccies from Varsity as ADGB had reverted to the old fighter command mark of F by sept 44 , these things would take weeks if not months to implement so by Varsity it should have been changed on all vehicles and the MW would or should have been sporting F/38. I recently tracked down an unmolested 1st edition copy of AP 3090 at the TNA Kew, and a kind chap I correspond with who lives near London did some research for me ; attached is the page detailing Command /group markings to add to your file. Mnn cannot get file to upload its all changed ????????????????????whats happened regards TED Edited February 3, 2010 by ted angus spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 hopefully it has attached Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 (edited) http://www.rafregiment.net/images/Dad%20006.jpg 2277 Sqdn RAF Regiment Paris March 1945 http://www.rafregiment.net/images/Dad%20002.jpg 2277 Sdrn Holland 1945 Edited October 2, 2010 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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