nz2

Joris. It is nice to see the Forum up and running. Thank you for explaining the reasons needed for the change as being one outside of your control and needing to be accommodated by providers. Any change in computer format takes time to get used to, I am not the quickest to get used to changes but manage over time then wonder why we persisted with the older version! Having the new posts button is good and speeds up my morning search. Doug

Originality is fine however how many vehicles in service maintained that status. Upgrades occurred during their life span and others were modified for particular projects or uses. Is the idea proposed for this Ferret that far out of the realm from what could have been done years ago in service. Then we can start on modifications taken after service whether in industry or as a civil defence role, or similar. Ex military vehicles became cranes, yard tugs, rural fire fighting units, and so the list goes on. Should we wrap all items up in the protective cloak of originality, or allow the expression of design to come up with new uses and applications. In this sense I am talking about use of an item, not about dressing it up as a hot rod which then ( to me) becomes an impractical thing outside of a road vehicle. Doug

I like the finish to the larger Renault. The wood on the back of the cab shows the saw cut marks, the bonnet has small dents, the paint is not glossy nor fresh, as if the vehicle has just come out of service. That would be a level of restoration finish I would like to achieve. A remarkable collection all up. I won't be at the auction so it's up to others now. How widespread is the HMV interest in France? Doug

As reported in an Australian car newsletter last month. The implications of officials power to read the regulations as they see is frightening. As appeared in: Ferraris online.com Online Exclusive—July 15, 2017 issue Sheehan-Online by Michael Sheehan [h=1]Australia, Asbestos and Collector Cars[/h] Our story begins in 2003 when the Australian government issued a zero-tolerance ban on any and all asbestos products, aimed mainly at imported Chinese drywall, a problem America also faced at the time. Fast forward to March 6, 2017 when, without prior warning to Shipping and Customs agents, let alone to owners, the Australian Border Force (ABF) began randomly testing all imported collector cars for asbestos, without any industry consultation, procedures or practices in place. One of our clients had two cars already en-route to Australia and so had no choice but to comply. One was a 1966 Shelby Mustang 350 GT and the second a stock 1966 Mustang donor-car, found together as “barn finds” and imported into Australia for restoration. [h=3]Making rules on the run[/h]Inspectors were picked from an ABF approved list of asbestos assessors, none of whom had collector car experience since this was an all-new process. An ABF officer and a representative of the customs brokers also had to be in attendance while the owner/importer was required to provide two mechanics, tools, a floor jack, jack stands, safety clothing and masks. All five charged by the hour, with the work being done at the customs wharf. The inspection of the Mustangs took a full 8-hour day times five people. The front brake pads, rear brake shoes, exhaust manifold and exhaust pipe gaskets from both cars plus the add-on A/C compressor from the stock Mustang were all taken for inspection. Some of the sealer from inside the wheel wells, around the firewall and the caulking around the windshield were also removed for testing. Additionally, samples were cut from the headliner material, the door frame inner padding, the hood scoop, the brake air ducts, the windshield washer bag and sample sections were cut from the wiring loom. As the 350 GT was pushed onto a hoist the ribbed aluminium oil pan fins were damaged. The pleas of both mechanics to cease the destructive sample-taking were ignored by the inspector, the customs agent and the ABF officer. As the day wound down the inspector recommended the removal of the engine and transmission for disassembly and removal of the front fenders and doors for further examination. Because of that day’s interpretation of the regulations, the owner was not allowed to be at the inspection. [h=3]Moving to plan “B”[/h]During & after the destructive first inspection, endless e-mails and calls between the customs broker and the ABF, the owner was able to get both mustangs taken to a well-respected exotic car sales and service center in Sydney. ABF required both a removal expert and an assessor to supervise the work, a hygienist to test the air for asbestos (how could I make this up) and two mechanics in space suits, all to remove a clutch. The caulking around the windshield, firewall and inner wheel wells was also removed but reason prevailed and so the engines were not disassembled. Both cars were then released to the owner. Total time was two months. Costs including the two removal experts, two assessors, two mechanics, (twice) the hygienist, plus the asbestos lab analyses and bulk sample report was approximately $15,000, not including the damage and cost to replace the seized parts on both cars plus the possibility of fines for non-compliance. [h=3]Meanwhile, across the continent[/h]Meanwhile, in Perth, on the other side of Australia, an enthusiast with a DKW obsession imported a rare 1953 DKW F89, a two cylinder, 23 hp, 684 cc post-war Germany econo-car built from 1950-54 and based on a pre-war design. Although 60,000 DKW F89s were built, most were scrapped as the German economy recovered and much better cars came to market. DKW was acquired by Mercedes in 1957, sold to Volkswagen-Audi in 1964 and DKW ceased to exist. The DKW in question was sold new into Portugal, was complete, relatively rust free and at $7,000 Aus ($5,400 USD) was a very affordable and unique collector car. As the third collector car to be inspected and the first in the Perth area, the owner was lucky. The asbestos inspector was both reasonable and horrified by the tale of the two Mustangs imported into Sydney, which had quickly gone through the collector car community. The initial inspection found asbestos in the rear brakes, the head and manifold gaskets and the under-coating in the wheel wells. The car was immediately impounded and the real problems began. [h=3]ABF again changes the rules[/h]The owner requested that he and a mechanic remove the offending material, but this was rejected by the ABF as they were not “authorized” to enter the “secure” dockside area. ABF insisted on a professional asbestos remover, but none had vintage car experience. The owner next asked to attend with the chosen asbestos remover but was again denied access to his car. A week later ABF agreed to the owner’s request to have his mechanic remove the asbestos, but after completing the paperwork, permits and an inspection time, ABF decided that removing the parts in the storage depot might be unsafe and the permit was cancelled. ABF first declined and then approved transport to Classic Gasoline, a collector car service center in Perth. ABF then again changed their mind and advised the car could only be moved to a certified asbestos removal center. After realizing there was no certified asbestos removal center that could do the work, ABF relented and permitted the car to be moved to Classic Gasoline. Paperwork recommenced, but at the last-minute Quarantine intervened, advising that the DKW could only be moved after it had been spray cleaned, but that it could only be spray cleaned after the asbestos was removed. As the owner wrote, “Catch 22 meets Franz Kafka”. [h=3]Back to plan “A”[/h]Everyone agreed to go back to plan “A”, a removal time was again booked only to have someone at ABF again demand the work be done by an asbestos specialist. After yet more calls, e-mails and negotiations it was finally agreed that ABF, the original inspector, two mechanics from Classic Gasoline and the owner would inspect the car, agree to the work to be done and the owner and mechanics would then be allowed to complete the work at dockside. Thanks to the DKW’s small engine, it was lifted out without a hoist for disassembly. After even more paperwork, ABF certified the removed parts and arranged their seizure and destruction. The additional storage fees were $3,000, the mechanics charged $1,500 and the shipping agents were another $1,500 plus the cost of finding and replacing the seized parts, so almost equal to the original $7,000 purchase price. The local ABF did not issue any fines for the non-compliant parts. The good news is that most new cars, world-wide, were asbestos free by 1999, but the bad news is that virtually all cars built before 1999 have asbestos-based components. All imported cars must obtain an asbestos test for their vehicles BEFORE they are shipped to Australia, but few countries have certified collector car asbestos inspectors. If asbestos is identified, it must be removed before the vehicle is shipped and owners must confirm the vehicle is asbestos free. The ABF doesn’t have the time, space and manpower to inspect every car, but no-one should take the risk of being caught up in the costs and damage of a random inspection, the possible seizure and destruction of the car plus the reality of fines because the seized parts were not zero asbestos compliant. The Australian Imported Motor Vehicle Industry Association is lobbying the ABF to standardize a consistent inspection regime, but the extra red tape, inspection costs and uncertainty have slowed imports to a crawl. Additionally, the new rules apply to imports AND exports, which will be another yet-to-be-defined learning curve! [h=3]But wait, it gets more complicated[/h]If the asbestos-related import/export restrictions were not enough, the Australian government is also ramping efforts to keep what are described as “culturally significant automobiles” in Australia and is considering the seizure of any vehicle deemed to have been “illegally” exported since 1987. Based on the UNESCO convention in trafficking of illicit cultural property, the proposed legislation would include any vehicle designed by an Australian, built in Australia, altered in Australia, or strongly associated with an Australian. To quote from the proposed legislation, “the best way of promoting the regime would be a couple of high profile actions for the seizure and return of forfeit cultural material”. If you have a car with a significant Australia history, be nervous. All of this should be a warning of future potential problems for the collector car community. If there’s a way to go overboard on regulations, the government, any government, seems to find a way to make life overtly complicated. While Australia is currently the epicenter of Monty-Pythonesque import (and export) restrictions, others will follow. China, for instance, simply forbids the import of classic cars, Norway wants to eliminate ALL (new and used) gas and diesel powered cars by 2025, while India and Germany want to eliminate all new gas and diesel cars by 2030 and France by 2040. Our children will live in a very different world. ©1999 - 2017 Michael W. Sheehan - All rights reserved.

Some years ago I inquired to Milestones as to the range of archive material on Thornycroft and was told only of the production registers. Your comment here suggests you have located more. Can you tell me how extensive the drawings are and for what models. Doug

The articles to date are not all that clear. If the idea is to remove small commuter cars what happens then to the commercial vehicles carrying the goods and needs of the population. Electrics for close suburban work, but too what weight Should that extend out to other transport, another area requiring fuel is marine vessels. Will it be no more outboard motors, as on smaller fishing boats and other specialist boats. No more Coast guard etc. Are we going back to sail power on the water and steam on the land!

Also a possability

Thanks Mike. Lets see if there are any other replies from about the world for otherwise I wonder if these cast wheels were made locally. Doug

And another set of unusual wheels arrive at home. I was told these were on a Thornycroft and could well be an after-market adaption using pneumatic tyres matched to straight stub axles with bronze bushes. There appears to be no casting marks about the cast wheel and the tyre size is that of a 24 inch rim. The overall pattern of the rim with it's hole pattern is like that of War Dept Thornycroft, however here the holes are smaller in diameter. The W.D. wheels were steel where as this set are cast. Have others seen any similar rims? Doug

And prewar numbers of Thornycroft's is another challenge again.

Ian contacted me the following day after purchase and I was able to date the engine as he had photographed the ID plate. That is from chassis 8997 delivered 5-2-1920. There is a further NZ connection as it was dispatched to A. Hatrick & Co. who as NZ agents also had offices in Sydney. Doug

It is interesting to read through the production records of the period pre 1920's. They can become confusing as the chassis types were built in batches using allocated numbers, then other chassis types fit in the gaps. Engine number sequence is even worse to follow as the same engine type can be used over different chassis types. Some engine numbers do not appear at all, and I assume those never got into vehicles. As the register is for vehicles, if engines went out for boats or other applications they would have been listed in a separate register. There is a column in the production register that appears to relate to model plans and variations of design, but as there is no supporting bookwork known trying to reconstruct the column entries is challenging. This is even more so with so few examples of vehicles and parts to work from pre 1914. Also of interest is the variable time frame between ordering and delivery. Some show a gap of only weeks while other orders took many many months before a delivery date. I wonder if this was involved with financing arrangements of sales. That becomes another question for did Thornycroft operate their own finance for it is a point I have not seen any information on. Doug

The Thornycroft family controlled or led both companies.

Good to see another J up and running. Just a small point for John regards dating; I have 2282 as built 1915 with delivery 31-3-15 to WD and on to Hornsey Brick Co. I take it was allocated to the Brick Company for the supply of materials for the war effort. The question here becomes were such lorries repainted out of military green, and or were the new operators permitted to label (sign write) to show their use. Having the flat deck on this restored vehicle would follow the home use form. Well done John. In time another J will emerge from our yard! Doug

The wheels under the triangular steel frame could be Thornycroft, the holes appear to be heart shaped, and there was a period of time where J models used this small heart shape. I have seen more rear wheels with larger holes, but so far have not been able to accurately date that production line, for as you have there, a set of wheels and no chassis number to assist. Are these treasures being moved on to your place? Doug

That makes sense, as a blower in a laundry. In an army situation a mobile unit as a complete package provided by one supplier. No different to what would have been provided to other commercial operations. It is this aspect of the military history that has me interested. The supply and provision of services. Doug

Now that's a different style of body to construct on a truck. As I don't have any horses it's use would be very limited. Another aspect of this is the turntable arrangement. I have a Thornycroft chassis ( 1913-14) with raised chassis cross members over the back axle. These are some 3-4 inches higher than the chassis rail made of heavy pipe with a flat centre section. Not to be confused with the arched cross members as used on latter Thornycroft chassis. These are factory made as the castings numbers are all in sequence to other chassis parts. For what purpose the raised sections were used for has been a puzzle. It is too early for an anti aircraft gun so this horse box is a possibility. Doug

Delightful! With those external flanges the overall shape is similar to that of a duplex or compound steam cylinder like on a traction engine, roller or portable. Could it have been designed by a steam engineer? With those dimensions I would image its volume of air passing rather than higher pressure or vacuum. Doug

The two bolts holding the floor plate to the scuttle through the newly made bent sections, have round heads. I could not tell if they were rivets otherwise. That is looking over the one here. One for the rivet counters! Doug

My son Karl has better eyes than me and was able to identify the first 3 letters on the pedals. Lacre it is. The steeply pointed radiator top hinted to me of a Lacre. Doug

Where abouts are you based? Doug

The wear on the inside raised lip could indicate use with no tyre. Perhaps used as an infrequently moved trailer. There is a slot in the rim for a valve stem to pass through.

The wheels are on a Dennis axle (probably pre 1920) which has latter Dennis hubs, so it has been changed about over the years. It shows use as a trailer. The wheels are far too thin and light to be used as a flywheel. Doug

My son came home from an auction with a number of old axles. Amongst the parts is a pair of cast wheels with slightly oval holes. The hubs they are attached to appear to be Dennis and the axle also Dennis but earlier.The wheels are 24 inches in diameter with a raised edge on the inner side and a groove to the outer edge for a locking ring. Two questions arise; was the tyre fitted direct to the rim, considering the small size of the lip on the inside edge, or was this a detachable rim that was slid on with a fitted tyre. The second idea would require some form of locking bolts to prevent sideways travel. One bearing cap is extended (as shown) and hollow with the name Henry Miller London cast into the brass edge. It's use? Stamped between the wheels nuts in one area are the numbers 68998 or if inverted to be read as 86689. Can anyone identify a maker or what they were attached to? Doug

A Benz built in Gaggenau was in New Zealand and was exported to Canada in the late 1980's. Restoration was completed in Canada. I have the wheels and rear axle for a chain drive Benz of this period and know of one other similar axle in a collection. Therefore at least three were imported into New Zealand. Some years ago I made contact with the Benz museum who where very helpful in suppling data to assist in identifying the model and year for the axle here. Doug