nz2

Park it near a tree and leaves accumulate, with moisture then rusting develops. Trees in storms tend to fall over leading to damage even to buildings. I've had that happen too. Doug

That would depend upon projected use. For lots of road work they hold an element of risk. For the occasional circuit about a show ring, those tyres could be suitable. Aside from placing such an axle back on a truck restoration project, to restore a trailer like this also shows a further use that parts were put to. It would look nice in a display with the trailer attached to a suitable vehicle. An aspect of restoration rarely seen.

That pattern of wood work for the trailer frame would probably date it from the 1920's-to early 30's, making the axle somewhere between 5 to 15 years old when utilised. Those tyres still look usable having no rust heave noticeable between the tyre and steel band.

Can you give the measurement between chassis mounting points. Height, length and width over. Also flywheel diameter

Any more photos of this available?

Is this seat as per the original specs regards height and depth, or have you altered it to suit our larger body size for these times. Is the seat higher, as we are taller than our earlier generations and also the cab wall has to be back a little more to allow us to fit in Doug

The bus body to the left has windows progressively smaller to the rear, suggesting it was a charabanc with raised seating to the rear. Perhaps the glass windows are a latter upgrade rather than the open sides. The bus in the centre has a delightful body style with the curved sections about the window tops. Doug

That lamp design showed so little change over the decades. Even the box and labels are a worthy presentation item. Doug

Where were these numbers stamped? Can you show a photo of the location. I have found similar stamping on a gearbox and take them for the initials of the assembler or foreman doing the work. Doug

Some years ago I came across a pair of solid rubber tyre wheels. There were no makers markings on the spokes or other parts however the pattern was showing as being from Leyland Last month my son Karl was in that part of the country and arranged to collect them. Now they are home and cleaned down the mounts for the springs, brakes and spoke shape all indicated early Leyland. We can now confirm the Leyland heritage, with help from Rick Sutcliffe. These come from a Leyland S3. 30 from 1913 and match the Sutcliffe's Barnsley bus. The axle housing has been gas cut at some time, so the diff section is missing along with the rest of the vehicle. Like so many of the wheels we have come across, these may have been used as a trailer in a second life. Confirming the identity of his pair of wheels takes Karl's Leyland collection back another three years in the timeline. Hopefully one day photos of this lorry will turn up.

Is that mark above the letters RAF a crown replacing the broad arrow, or is it a polarity indicator? Doug

Some searching has found BB4 190 as fitted to Q chassis no. 10910 leaving the factory on 30-8-1924 However the engine may not be the original as things got swapped about over a vehicles life. hope this helps Doug

Good to see the progress. Is there a serial number on a brass plate on the engine and also a stamped number on the left front end of the chassis. That would allow a date of manufacture to be gained. Not many Q models about, I found the rear axle of one here in N.Z. and a front axle at another location. The rear axle is so different to the J having raised sections as overriders about the springs. Doug

Correct it is from a Caledon lorry. I have seen parts of two in New Zealand, with parts of another one still on the get to list. The one you have has cast bearing caps, earlier models had brass caps. My research indicates only a vey few were imported into NZ. There is one complete example on display in Scotland. Doug

George has given the engine number as 21625 quoting it from the brass plate attached to the engine with the type S5.36. He also refers to the top curved corners of the firewall (scuttle) is formed with the rest of the curved section, not soldered. That production form would indicate a latter scuttle. It would be convenient for a museum to use such a number to identify an object to the records and data base. It fills in the boxes as to an ID. As a result errors do occur in translation later when the object is quoted as being a particular number. Thankyou Mike C for correcting me as to George's true work title. Doug

Some years ago we followed through on this Leyland trying to seek a year of manufacture. The Curator of the collection ( George) was touring in New Zealand and took an interest in our research and collection. On his return he was unable to locate a chassis number, the engine number is for a latter engine of the 1920's. From the lorries earlier condition when it came into the collection he suspects it was an accumulation of parts to represent one of the WW1 period. No other numbers for other parts carrying the brass id plates has been passed on. Comparing those numbers in our data base could link closer to a year of build. If others have access to the collection and can record additional ID numbers it would be helpful. Doug

Some years ago we followed through on this Leyland trying to seek a year of manufacture. The Curator of the collection ( George) was touring in New Zealand and took an interest in our research and collection. On his return he was unable to locate a chassis number, the engine number is for a latter engine of the 1920's. From the lorries earlier condition when it came into the collection he suspects it was an accumulation of parts to represent one of the WW1 period. No other numbers for other parts carrying the brass id plates has been passed on. Comparing those numbers in our data base could link closer to a year of build. If others have access to the collection and can record additional ID numbers it would be helpful. Doug

Can you measure up the overall size

Well done Mike. A nice piece of detective work in identifying the chassis from the photos. Doug

Thanks Dave. Look forward to seeing it.

Thanks Mammoth. I support your comments. I'm hoping someone is able to provide some data on Commer Cars in particular. Doug

Referring back to the Commer Car bus, does anyone have any notes as to when wooden spokes were replaced with metal spokes. We have recovered a back axle for a chain drive Commer Car that has bearing caps the same as shown in the bus photo. The wooden spokes are substantial as built for the heavier loading rate.

The supply of parts manufactured by other companies in this time period has puzzled me as well. Some years ago I came across a rear axle and wheels for a chain drive White truck with JAC cast into the hub. The Catton foundry produced parts for Thornycroft, Yorkshire and others but to see the mark on an American item had me thinking of a foundry in the USA using the same initials. It would appear this is a replacement part made in England. Doug

The hubs of the rear axles have a design pattern more like a Dennis. Also similar where some American trucks of WW1. Overall the chassis appears to have been extensively modified and strengthened, hiding features that could identify it. The front tyre appears to be 24 inch so latter 1920's. The radiator is too deep for a Thornycroft.

Tomo T comments regards these being a prototype is always a fair point. The build register shows the use of the M4 engine being available from July 1913, however it appears the L4 engine continued to be more popular by demand. Well at least more were supplied in lorries passing out of the factory. The point of sending them to the Colonies also raises issues, for many are listed as being supplied to the home market. Tozer, Kemsley and Fisher were exporting agents also sending products from many other different manufactures all about the world. Although their name appears regularly on the dispatch column there is no indication as to where these vehicles went to. To make things a little easier for me in New Zealand, a local firm of A. Hatrick & Co. began importing Thornycrofts, placing their first order on 30-8-1912. To confuse the issue Hattrick's also had an office in Sydney, and there are still Thornycroft's in Australia with a Hatrick agency name plate. No records are known to have survived from the Hatrick companies covering the imported chassis numbers. From the Thornycroft production records the Hatrick name appears fifty five times to April 1915, the last five being ordered after the commencement of hostilities. Eleven different models are recorded as been delivered. These early J models did have their problems in France during the early months of The Great War with the major repair depots making changes to the vehicle parts. Apparently a replacement rear axle casing was designed and cast in France by the depot, to replace the five piece diff housing as used on these early J's. This then became the standard when the J model was repowered to the M4 engine in August 1915. From Steve's photos we can see the gearbox was another item that received a dramatic change in form, along with the position of the fuel tank. Other changes to the Subsidy wagon included the steering track rod being moved to behind the axle, the front wheels became larger and the front spring hangers were moved from the front to the rear end of the springs. Steve in providing these photos and passing on more data by email has greatly assisted in allowing the similar J here to progress further towards restoration, for now there is another one to compare with. Doug