steveo578

I thought that had become a very unpopular term after terrance and phil:-). Isn't that still illegal in HMF?:shocked: Anyway Jack would carry a Sterling an' a bottle of vodka just to keep us all under control -so its not him:-D

Yes they used to fire at Otterburn, although once one took a bird strike and had to come into Newcastle airport with full ordnance on board -the pilot dilligently followed the river to the area set aside for the then building bypass and on to the airport- evidently in case any of the ordnance dropped off so no flying over built up areas -fairly difficult task:shocked:

Just thought I'd add to the post with some historical background pics of M50s The standard ex M4A4 type with radial engine as used in Nov. 1956 war. A 1957 or 58 Independence day parade probably Tel Aviv showing a M4 hybrid hulled M50 still on 16inch track followed by a M50 on a M4A1 75 again original configuration on track. June 1967 an Israeli M50 based on large hatch M4A1 75 (similar to that used for some wartime DDs) enters Jerusalem through the Mandelbaum Gate- note the advance personal transport used by IDF -in the 1973 war an incident was reported that in keeping with mechanised infantry policy of "no-one walks into battle" a squad took a milk float west into battle in Sinai Waiting for a bus can be dangerous in the Holy land. An M50 HVSS based on a late model Sherman hull with the 47degree hull there is a group photo showing an M50 like this one but refitted with an earlier three piece transmission cover. Steve

With respect, not on this forum but I can remember some-one known quite well to both of us who was big in AFV restoration(1st name begining with R) who actually stated in writing (I'll dig it out if necessary) that MOD policy was to clear all ranges of WW2 stuff as of 1985-86 ie at the time of the Bovington Friends expedition to SPTA and the inference has been persued elsewhere so I'm not surprised that Alastair is -shall I say puzzled. There are often problems with English Heritage and other NGOs who have massive powers and unless a policy change can be effected time is unlikely to resolve anything, For example an on going case in Sweden where an old guy had squirrled trucks and cars on his land -now dead the L/As NGOs etc have placed a none negotiable 50year environmental ban on removing anything from the site- despite it being pointed out that storage of derilict motor vehicles anywhere than a hard standing breaches EU environmental law(for the sake of the water table) not to mention that derilicts encourage vandalism and potential forest fires. Steve:-)

I'm sure you won't let it rust :-D impresive looking thing

I found this one while looking for information regarding another question- typical of those germans to upstage the russians:-D

Told you it was a light armoured vehicle

Couldn't find my photo of Cricklades the Number stamp -so this one was retained by the Portugese army as a gateguard/museum exhibit at Santa Margrida. Of any of these marking the number 7 is the weakest strike- and the number one tends to be most visible which meant that some people reported Smokin' Joe a Budge Grizzly as number 1 whereas it is 71 Steve

As i had the scanner running I uploaded the photo of the M10c mantlet in the turret of a turreted M10c on Warcop -no longer there though:(. Steve

more photos of the interior and other details M50 breach detail of original turret casting cut away to atain depression Loaders station rear of turret basket floor gunners side including spare track thrown inside Washing machine sorry turret basket still very similar to original loaders hatch note welding of hatch fitting -loaders hatches were not original kit. Drivers station still pretty much as a standard MkV apart from the control panel modified later M4 style On Israeli modified HVSS there is a rough chamfer on the inside edge of hull for clearance. US factory built the chamfer is finely machined this is an M74 TRV. Steve

Yes it would be -one ended up returret with an 105mm howitzer and turret- not convincing. Personally although the demand is for WW2 Shermans I would be happy with a M50 or M51:D. great conversion lots of history. The Ist series of about 60 M50 were built using Sherman V -which were variously sourced. The ones used in November 1956 were completed by the french from ex MAPD french M4A4(T) which were Sherman V recently (1951-52) converted from stocks of multibank engined Sherman V taken over from the British. (There is an example of a Transforme Sherman V on the restorations thread). Probably to avoid MAPD scrutiny the French claimed they had assisted in converting existing Israeli stocks- which to some extent is true French technicians did assist the Isaelis in rationising their Shermans to the radial configuration, they also supplied gun mounts and counter balance castings to Israel to convince the USA that they weren't supplying complete tanks against MAPD end use regulations. Imediately prior to the outbreak of the 1956 war a batch of 60 M50 conversions and 60 M4A1 76 tanks were supplied as an emergency measure covertly landing the tanks by night in Israel often from LSTs. little wonder the USA went ballistic when they found out what had gone on. The 2nd batch was more varied than the inital batch (which were almost all M4A4(T) hulls) batch 2 included M4A4(t), M4, M4hybrid, welded hull 47deg hull types and cast hulled M4A1 of various styles and ages -by the 1967 war many M50s had be futher updated to a similar standard to the M51 with HVSS and very limited numbers with the 460 Cummins by 1973 almost all remaining Sherman gun tanks had the Cummins. The Eden Camp tank has all the normal attributes of a multi refurbished Sherman V M50 converson. A none re-enforced (early model) without applique turret. In practice there is no guarentee the turret and the hull are an original match as tanks are known to be cobbled together during the refurb. The drivers -co drivers hoods were fitted with applique at a later date than the sponson applique -in this case they are cut from old Sherman hull parts- the filled bogie bolt holes can be decerned. The sponson applique could be factory fitted or a wartime kit -its hard to tell it's a bit rough but better than some. The turret is not a Firefly turret- the Israeli had only one and it was retained for tests and despite stories that the Israelis used M10c is also debatable -there is no photographic evidence for this. Why the CN 75 N was fitted as it was is not really that apparent, the similar but later Argentinian Firefly conversion and the Indian Sherman V CN 75 N conversion retained the Sherman style mantlet shield. It used an under barrel recoil system similar to that later used in the M51. Exterior views of Eden camp M50 shortly after purchase Steve

Thanks for clarifying the designation, there seem to be a load of similar looking AFVs with similar reporting designations and different functions. Steve

Ah yes very remiss:embarrassed::blush: of me not to go back and look at the 1st post on this thread -as I forgot it didn't have a mantlet. I'm surprised it is that mantlet:wow: as I thought the whole unit went for a holiday across the water, for a turretless M10 that had turned up in Scotland. I had hoped some-one had salvaged the Warcop one that was inside the hull before it was scrapped- such is life:D The level of restoration involved in this M10c is incredible - I remember walking into the Warcop turreted wreck (it having had its motors removed) and everything inside was rotten including the speed plate which surprisingly was still in place. Steve

As I assume this AFV wasn't a range target was this damage service damage or a fault in the casting or something else?

Yes it would be less bother to use an existing- fairly clear number than have a reluctant squaddie wandering around with a paintbrush and tin, or it ends up with "Kill Kremlin and up CND" which were markings on Saracens that were on Feldom. It's the "old" bit that'll get you down but you've still got awhile to go.

Hi Adrian thanks for posting that photo the only one I've got currently is this one -it is not at all clear- I know it is there but it's not good enough to post for discusion. I really must invest in one of those negative readers for computers -as I've sent out so many hard copies over the years that my catalogue of photos is somewhat depleated- another expense and something computer wise to thwart me.:cool2: I'm sure that there are photos of these tanks before they were sent to various ranges, it has been mentioned to me one of Mr MacGregors people took a snap or two as he preped the tanks, whether true or not I don't know -there was almost a myth industry around Grizzlies back then-everyone had a story-and each one has to be weighed. It's possible that the numbers were sprayed on when under Mr MacGregors control- it's alot easier than having to look for a 20-25mm number stamp. Steve

Co-indicence perhaps:??? two photos from elsewhere on HMVF of Grizzlies photographed by Adrian Barrell and Bob Grundy tends to confirm what I said Bob Grundys photo of a Grizzly at Lulworth note the 161 on side While not relevant to the point I make about the spray can marking - because of the type of carapice -a late model with intergral applique and what looks like a casting mark on the right turret cheek I think it may be the ex RCMS Shrivenham Gate guard which was later probably a Gate guard at Belefeld in the 1990s, I am unsure to where this tank is now- if anyone has seen it recently the number is stamped under the G logo on the glacis. The OTA Grizzly No76 and a close up, the number is 52 was also visible on it companion but doesn't show up on any photos I have now -it was only visible when wet:cheesy: Adrian pic of the Grizzly under tow on Sennybridge and again a close up The thing to note about all these numbers 25-76 and 161 is the similarity of script and colour- I know that even in the 1980s the army was shrinking but I doubt they had one squaddie-specialist running around the various gunnery ranges with his standard issue light blue "banksie spray can". It is confirmed that the 3 vehicles in question Cricklade-Winton is Shop#25 the 2 OTA tanks were Shop No#52 and #76. It is unfortunate that no-one has earlier photos of the Warcop targets -one was possibly Shop No#134 as the speed plate of #134 turned up and doesn't seem to relate to any surviving Grizzly. Speed plate or Shop No#91 also exists and it too possibly relates to another targeted tank, which would have welded applique- perhaps a 3rd target on Warcop. BTW the LTV4 was possibly an LVT3 I apologise to Adrian and Bob for not PM them first before re-using the photos they posted. Steve

A Yes that's Cricklade Grizzly 25 which as mentioned was returned to Bovington after being on loan elsewhere.

I think you'll draw a blank on that one, I can't think of any books that are specific to 6pdr or 17pdr -I think there was one about 2pdrs about thirty+ years ago. There is one book on British and American Atillery by Ian Hogg which dates back to 1980 and is probably no longer about, but it only covers the 6 and 17pdr in a few pages each as it covers everything from the Smith gun to huge rail guns used for coastal defence. There is also an earlier volume on German artillery by Ian Hogg which will almost certainly be un available. There is a Macdonald Janes Factfile booklet of A/T guns of all nations dating from 1974 and a reprint -or similar booklet by Ian Hogg from the early 1990s, neither cover any type in great detail -they are very like old ID manuals. I'm sure some of the bods that have 6pdrs and 17pdrs will be able to advise about the availablity of T/Ms. Sorry I can't be more positive Steve

Thanks for sharing- for other members note the sparyed on number 25 in the centre of the hull sponson- all/most of the Grizzlies that were placed as targets had the "shop number" sprayed on before placement. I just noticed the Daimler wreck just beyond the Grizzly. In position as a gateguard at Bovington,(not one of my better photos) note that this one No25 and that shown currently on the HMVF Front Page "Robin Hood" are part of the same production batch being No18. It might be significant that a good prodortion of the ten target Grizzlies were those without the welded on applique, AFAIK only the OTA targets had welded on applique- I wonder if puchasers had a preference for the appliqued tanks or was it just happenstance? Steve

Thanks for that Montie, just curious as 17pdr and 76mm were used by the units of the 6th South African Armoured Division in Italy. Steve

Hi eddy The Abbot which had different NCB kit and exhaust pipe layout was always an over at 2.64m. Historically the CVRT series just grew fat it started off at 2.1metres to simplify air portabilty and alegedly to allow the afv to travel between rubber trees on plantations:nut: obviously the fat ar**d bu**ers at the MOD must have caused it to get wider. Steve

Hi montie Yes it's another Sherman -this time a Sherman Mk1c which is armed with the high powered 17pdr gun and ran on a radial gasoline engine the one in the background is a Sherman Mk2A -a 76mm gun variant again with a radial engine- was this photo taken in Italy by chance? Steve

Quite a famous picture of the Sherwood Rangers tank Akilla at Normandy pretty certain its a Mk3. In the Desert campaign the Shermans would be mostly Mk2 so vaguely reminisant of the "Robin Hood" or IWM Duxford Grizzly type -early hull type without applique would be close to early M4A1s but the bogies turret and mantlet are not correct they need to be an earlier type. Steve

I don't actually think the point of this thread is the width question it is whether the Manchester office is correct in its interperation that "they made a mistake in registering all tracked vehicles" as xtreme wrote in Post #1 and you are correct that if vehicles have been registered improperly then they are actually illegal for road use, the law doesn't allow any form of "phew I got away with that one". Steve