steveo578

Although there are lots of "rural" myths about the OTA -this one is perfectly possible as the huge Stewardshiel plantation was the southern boundary to the old parachute DZ so a sudden gust from the north and that would be that, I never reckoned the drop zone myself -another one with a nice wire egg slicer fence across it. Stewardshiel was cleared when I was around -I took an early opportunity to get in an look around for any "lost" targets but I didn't see any landys -however they could have been removed - As for other plantations they are less likely as they are some distance from the DZ. I do remember about 1995 a landy was dropped on the DZ without its chutes deploying. Steve

At least I said that you were a character .. I remember a poor s'd applying to join our local police force and was turned down for "no disernable character":rolleyes: Yes I had the good sense to walk -it's surprising how violently a D6 can pull a landy around. Steve

Another picture of the M3 grant

Churchill supplemental Eddy did you say you wanted a Churchill clutch plate it looks like a 5.5inch extractor has almost done the job for you:D Probably an ex RE driver training tank the turet was locked in reverse and a wooden block was fitted to the hull Besa mount- obviously to stop the draught during high speed jollies. same tank. Current status of the OTA Churchills is unknown to me there was a plan to strip them in 2005 whether this happened I don't know. Steve

I think 12 years was long enough cover the entire range -although it did take 9years for the Blue Cavalier to pop up, after that I made sure I covered the range more systematically. If anything turns up now it would be a site burial. There are rumours of targets outside the current military reservation -for example there was supposed to be an A/T target at a farm called Blagdon burn gate (which is at least 5mile from Otterburn (probably a Home guard training site) where a number of bombs/grenades were dug up by the farmer, the RO having to despatch the EOD to sort it. There was nothing aparaent so if it the tank is still there it was buried or well hidden in a copse or thicket. Covenanter supplemental 2 strange characters view the wreck fighting compartment Engine compartment Loading the tank onto a trailer linked to a dozer Fodens again lift the tank Steve

Again it's a shame they are in France although it looks like the totters have been busy:shocked:, unless the rear end was removed for security reasons.

thanks Rick :thumbsup: Stock photo of the Bushmans road Cent mk5 LR I tried to upload it on the previous post but Firefox was letting me down as usual. Steve

The Red Cavalier was back marker on the Roman Road A/T range -the firing point being just off the line of Deer Street ( the main arterial Roman road). There were an number of wrecks on this site that were removed in the late 1970s including a Centurion, two Comets, Saracen and possibly a Churchill MK7. Strange thing while awaitng recovery the commanders hatch which had been placed in the engine compartment went missing. Trials for a new form of APC perhaps? the wreck is dragged off the range Noe the damage by 17pdr has blown the right rear turret side clean off. On the edge of the road awaitng the transporter note the 17pdr shell holes despite being rear marker it still was targeted on occasion -fortunately the R/L BATs fired from the main firing point seem to have been unable or were forbidden to engage the target. The first attempt to remove it from the range ended in failure. Detail view of the inside of the turret. Cavaliers had the ID mounted on the Glacis and possibly the enstamped U designates unarmoured!

Various photos of OTA Churchills All Mk4 Petard AVREs The oldest Churchill on site until removed in 2002 was Merlin (although it is of the same approximate age as the Bovington Mk3 AVRE) its nameon the right air intake may not be original although some AVREs at the RE wing at Bovington had names associated with Marlories novel -for example Black Knight. During its recovery it was necessary to replace the left idler -a missile had swept the air intake, side door off and damaged the idler. Detail of the removal of idler note the track tensioning shims to the left Detail of another AVRE on the Otterburn impact area 2nd AVRE on the Otterburn sub division The heavily damaged 3rd AVRE on this sub division probably had been there since the early 1950s as were Merlin and the Mk3 recovered in the 1980s by Bob Grundy- this one got the worst of 25pdr HE and AP and 5.5s

In deference to eddy8men I'm starting a separate thread for Otterburn range target photos rather than post them in the the thread in the Archaeology sub forum. There are likely to be some repeats that have been posted elsewhere on the forum-I hope that others will contribute especially anyone with pre 1980s photos. Coventanter Mk3 Covenanter pulled out of the mire Covenanter gets airborne Very early M3 Grant 1 Medium hulk Steve

doesn't follow that just because they have no apparent shell RL or ATWG damage that they aren't military assets in some form of training area- it could currently be a none firing area it fairly rare these days to allow targeting tanks in trees with anything larger than blanks, especially in Germany- the tree huggers get really annoyed and you're not allowed to shoot them :-( . Steve

B**ger -is it like a game of baseball -3 strikes and I'm out - you're right again- no excuse:blush: Steve

Yes- as usual you're right:D I was refering to key cards - as an aside I wonder if the casualty cards were retained or destoryed- as they were on punch cards -the type used in primative computer/ jackard readers, they too were probably sent for recycling -the card quality was evidently very high. Steve

You're aware of the old building rule -measure twice - cut once- well that could be applied to British tank production -keep trying and eventually you'll get it right. There were good designers who were ham strung by their superiors -for example the A30 Challenger -which is little more than a Cromwell with a turret supporting lump plonked on top -was the responsiblity of a bloke called Rothbottom from Rolls Royce -it is faily obvious from his autobiography that what qualified him to lead the development was his education at a private school rather than any engineering ability or training- but never mind. Steve

Hi Eddy nothing unique sadly -it was a British attempt to get a 75mm gun into a matilda- was overloaded but really just too late. Had they been more sensible -(the old boy network probably was a great problem in British tank development in WW2- probably still has an effect even today) mounting a Mk4 turret from a Churchill would have been better- the Matilda could have taken it without too much difficulty as the turret ring diameter was so close fitting surplus Churchill 2 2pdr turrets was considered, Steve

Thanks for that Adrian -i was about to reply but a PM popped up when I came on line. I have seen several registration cards for Churchills -as had the member K/A ossie -I cannot post them here for copyright reasons, the ones I have seen cover vehicles that survived WW2 and and therefore they include numbers that were transfered to the Post war registration system, they are listed by Mark gun type specialism (Bridge layer) many include engine number and list final dispossal - Hard target (sometimes with the range) scrap dealer (by name for example Cohens) all on one line with many annotations. Whether anyone has gotten further with these registration cards I don't know -there was a plan to get Bovington Friends to do the collating- personally I would have been happy to sort these out but no-one got back to me so I assume some-one else was doing it. BTW for anyone who wants any info on Churchills I have an incomplete list of vehicles which I have worked on for many years by noting down anything that comes up -for example anything found in books, articles, photos war diaries etc. If you have a particular number I might be able to help- less than 50-50 chance but better than nothing. Steve

It might be an idea to cross ref. this thread with Tracked Vehicles Jailed for stealing a Maybach by Onthecorner Interestingly enough the D/T otherwise obsessed with money fails to mention the 1m Euro fine for the loss of the property of the Bulgarian MOD. I suppose at least the Telegraph got the correct designation for the tank in question. Perhaps the two threads need to be merged Steve

Thanks for that prompt response novinite is obviously brilliant for unforced errors -the tank shown "from files" is actually a Tiger 2 only about 500 built and unlikely to be one of the tanks buried in the Bulgarian border defence line. There are persistant rumours of Panthers buried as part of the defence lines but as yet no evidence has come to light although some Panthers were used in Post War Bulgarians service and one was burnt out in service -a common problem in Panthers. No German tanks were named after their motors Maybach was the motor manufacturer for most German AFVs -although the Czech ones had there own Praga and Skoda. The problem with stealing and Maybach in the same sentence is the forum has already had thread on a similar matter. Steve

onthecorner Thanks for posting that, no reflection on you but I see accuracy is still not paramount in the mind of journalists then- what the **** is a Maybach Tank then:nut::nut::nut: There were Panzer 4 Stug 3 Jdpz 4 and various Soviet T34 on the bulgianian defence line in question. Steve

Unfortunately apart for the précis of both CA232 articles at www.archaeology.co.uk/ articles/ from-barrow-to-bunker-archaeology-on-the-otterburn-training-area.htm and www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/ its-a-long-long-way-to-tipperary-the-archaeology-of-the-great-war-at-otterburn.htm there seems to be no way of accessing this site fully without making a fairly large financial commitment, which is surprising considering the web counter shows a regular 70-90 guests accessing the site. However not to be defeated by the internet and as it was the weekend I went to my city library with negative result- they don't subscribe. Again not to be beaten and having access to an academic account the following week I requested access only to find the uni doesn't subscribe. As the uni has a major archaeology department, one of the T/As suggested that the reason they don’t subscribe is probably down to;- 1). the subscription is too expensive or 2). the academic body does consider the publication of sufficient academic rigor. 3) Combination of 1 and 2. With regard to the articles themselves I have some reservations, firstly with regard to contrary to the article since 2002 the current OTA staff has imposed a much tighter control on public access, putting areas such as the “Stone in the Mire” and “Wilkwood” out of bounds –“No access except on authorised business”. In effect general access is confined to those roads that are designated public rights of way between farms currently on the reservation. Historically military training in the area goes back almost two millennia to numerous roman training camps within the current OTA boundary notably at Chew Green (referred to by Roman soldiery as “Worlds End” so nothing new there then:-)). In addition just beyond the northern boundary a roman siege training area is located at Woden Law, earthworks and a fortlet at Dormount hope on the approximate line of Dear Street. During WW2 the training area was more extensive than the current OTA with active areas to the north and east of the Coquet river- with several pill boxes still extant along with several near bye sites to the south east which may have originally built to protect the then Home Chain site at Ottercops. With regard to These trench systems were found by the former OTA range officer who also alerted Bovington of the existence of the A11 and Churchill 3 which were recovered in the late 1980s. In all honesty the University and English Heritage etc showed little interest in anything other than Roman and Medieval settlements prior to 1996 –indeed EHs representative was somewhat prissy with regard to the removal of the Red Cavalier even though it had followed the same track line used for its placement 50 years previously and therefore minimised damage to the Roman camp boundary where it had been placed. Information on the Army in the Great War is difficult to come by as anyone who has had involvement with the Western Front association will attest but the expectation of finding grenade fragments, expended rounds and discarded equipment of the Great War I regard as somewhat naïve, grenade training assuming trainees got any live grenade training, would be done on a dedicated throwing area similar to the later grenade throwing area at Carrick Height on the southern OTA impact area which has now been cleared and its OP tower demolished. Regarding expended rounds until recently and certainly in the days of bolt action weapons there was a requirement to “police” rounds. Discarded equipment in training is again unlikely at a time when the authorities deducted a 1 shilling blanket charge from a soldiers assets in the event of a death, loose kit in training and a squadie would certainly face a COs award. In effect the article seems to confuse what would be expected in an active service trench and that in training. As an aside there are areas near the Hopefoot road (near the Otterburn Camp) between the encampment area and the homestead settlement that could be remnants of trench systems- but could be from any era. As regard shell damage in WW2 the OTA used 18pdr field guns leading to possibilities of confusion for example there were numerous expended 18pdr shrapnel shells in the Redesdale impact area at Woolbist law. They also may have had 60pdr as I found what was probably a 60pdr in an embankment about 1/2km north east of the Sills site -it was blown in place as its promimity to a public road and an impending public holiday may have put people at risk. The location of the WW1 trench training area is fairly easy to find on Google possibly because it seems to have been photographed in winter, the overview shows the relative position of the mobile target system on Bushman road which is north of Redesdale camp and again north of Siloans farm. With the Centurion Mk3(5) LR 07ZR97 target on the east side of the road. To the east between the visible trench works and the edge of the old parachutist drop zone alocation DZ1A are a number of field marking which could be other WW1 structures. Steve

It is debatable whether a BARV needed to be aggressively armoured -probably protective glass is really sufficient especially the newish aluminium glass composites. The wartime Sherman BARVs were really only lightly armoured apart from the areas of original tanks -likewise the later Centurions, had sustained firing been encountered the BARV was in effect unable to do much apart from pushing- it couldn't depoloy the diver etc. so the best protection for a BARV was to make for deep water and reduce its presence. I think three went to Israel if I remember correctly I sent their numbers to you many years ago. so possibly 3 missing -probably held in reserve. Steve

From Scorpion AFV/Profile 34 by R.M. Ogorkiewicz Note the low profile of turret and had the front of the mockup not been opened up like a bean can I'm sure the layout would be apparent. the turret could have been an internal oscilating turret allowing the comparatively low height in relationship to the gun. You get a deeper level of AFV research with books and articles by Prof. Oggorkiewicz. Steve

They are Marmon Herrington MkIV armoured cars manufactured in South Africa and used in a number of ex British colonys -Palestine Cyprus Greece- East Africa and used by South Africa itself in various modes. The earlier Mk1 to 3 are more famous being used in the Desert War 1940-43 Steve

Bob Grundy published a photo of a Lulworth Churchill MK7 crocodile without tracks taken about 1984-85 or so(grizzly also photographed) it's in the Range Wreck thread post #95.

Probably not much use to the original poster- but T31550R is from a batch of Metro-Cammel Churchill and would be originally built as a Mk2 and was remanufactured (probably by Vauxhall) as a Mk4. probably subjected to several rebuilds hence the R. Of its immediate siblings in the same batch - T31505 Mk 2 Leopard final use as a dead load for training RASC tank transporter crews in using Dysons. T31531 a Mk2 Shipley 43RTR the often photographed training regiment using early Churchills. T31540 a Mk2 Agile 51RTR T31546 rebuilt as Mk4 bridgelayer became 44ZR65 and handed off to South Africa. T31552 rebuilt as Mk4 B/L became 44ZR52 served in BAOR struck off April 1958 probably to targeting. T31557 a Mk2 is shown in a photo in David Fletchers Crocodile book in Osprey Vanguard series as an experimental twin OKE flamethrower serving with a OTU.