question British Army Northern Ireland

[JakLomas]

What did British troops in Northern Ireland wear in the 60's to 80's? Also does anyone know what the padding on the NI issue gloves was meant for?

 

Thanks, Jak

[NCA75]

Late 60's would have been 1960 pattern combat smocks and trousers with an odd dpm 60 patt here and there,Riot helmet or beret depending what they were doing....70's would have been 1968 pattern dpm smocks with 'trousers overall'(think lightweights) and 68 patt dpm trousers,woolly pully,boots DMS.Then pretty much the same thing into the 80's until the 84 pattern was issued.Do a google image search of British troops in Northern Ireland.

The padding was for knuckle protection on the gloves.

[2 para]

4 platoon N.I 1979

Edited January 6, 2013 by 2 para

[wdbikemad]

For the initial period late-'60s up to 71 - 72 in NI......

 

Olive Drab 1960 pattern combat smocks and trousers up to 1970-'71......occasionally in warm weather either shirt sleeve order (khaki 1950 or '64 pattern KF flannel shirt - the green hairy combat shirt did not appear until '72), possibly with a lightweight green denim '60 pattern "Jackets, Overall" worn instead of the combat smock.......

 

Pullys, if worn, were often the brown-khaki heavy-duty extreme cold weather jersey with the draw-string neck and sleeve and shoulder patches in light khaki-drill (the ones everyone thinks are "SAS" issue)...........the olive green heavy duty '68 pattern jersey (loose knit, no epaulettes and green denim patches) didn't appear until '69 at the earliest..........

 

All usually worn under the flak jacket........

 

Para's wore the '59 pattern denison with either green denim '60 pattern "overall" trousers or the green drill tropical variety........(sometimes with the flak jacket worn underneath the smock....)

 

Boots were DMS ankle type, worn with either blackened (polished) '37 webbing anklets or short khaki puttees....the former were going out of use by the late-'60s, 'though some troops kept 'em up to the mid-'70s........

 

DPM clothing wasn't introduced until 1970, the first issues being of the '60 pattern.......the 1968 pattern DPM gear began to be issued from March '71 onwards, supplementing the DPM '60 pattern.........some troops continued wearing the olive drab combat clothing up to '73 in some cases.......:-D

 

The padded "NI" gloves were intended to protect the knuckles in urban combat areas, the padding (partially) intended to protect the knuckles from prolonged abrasion and impact from carrying the riot shield and baton.....early issues up to the late-'70s had the upper part of the fingers padded too (except for the trigger finger).....later issues lost all the finger padding but kept the knuckle pad.....the gloves didn't appear until around '74-'76.......the NI patrol boots slightly later........

 

Nylon "crisp packet" waterproof jackets and trousers appeared around the mid '70s....first issue in green, then DPM a couple of years later (zip & press-stud fastened)........DPM PVC from '84 onwards (zip & velcro)........

Edited January 6, 2013 by wdbikemad

[Brucie]

There is a set of books Vol 1 - 4 "THE BRITISH ARMY IN ULSTER" by the author David Barzilay, and they cover the period 1969 - 1981 and give a good bit of information.

[Rover8FFR]

There is a set of books Vol 1 - 4 "THE BRITISH ARMY IN ULSTER" by the author David Barzilay, and they cover the period 1969 - 1981 and give a good bit of information.

 

Great read and lots on vehicles and militia too.

 

Bit of an eye opener to civis in England at that time........

 

Very enlightening on the tools of war etc.....

[JakLomas]

Thanks for the Help everybody I think I have most of the stuff you've said, although what equipment would a regular soldier have with him on a regular Patrol?

 

Thanks again Jak

[Rover8FFR]

Thanks for the Help everybody I think I have most of the stuff you've said, although what equipment would a regular soldier have with him on a regular Patrol?

 

Thanks again Jak

 

CEFO and no doubts a NI Patrol Pack :-)

[JakLomas]

Hi Again

I've just got a NI Patrol Pack today but could you please tell me what a CEFO is.

 

Thanks Jak

[Marmite!!]

Hi Again

I've just got a NI Patrol Pack today but could you please tell me what a CEFO is.

 

Thanks Jak

Combat Equipment Fighting Order

http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/CEFO

[Rover8FFR]

Combat Equipment Fighting Order

http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/CEFO

 

Thats the kiddie.

 

CEMO is Combat Equipment Marching Order.

[JakLomas]

Ok Thanks again

 

But what insignia would be worn on the Combat Smock/Jacket by the Royal Corps of Transport

Edited January 7, 2013 by JakLomas

[wdbikemad]

Ok Thanks again

 

But what insignia would be worn on the Combat Smock/Jacket by the Royal Corps of Transport

 

Depends on exactly what period, but the general standard for the '70s and '80s was NO insignia, other than rank and certain qualification/trade badges were displayed on combat smocks (eg: rank chevrons, WO and officer insignia, para wings & DZ patches for airborne troops, etc)...........thus the beret and badge were generally the only means of identifying individual units when worn......

 

It was really only after CS95 clothing came in that the current proliferation of tactical patches and insignia began to appear (late-90s onwards)............rather similar to battledress in the '40s....originally worn with very little insignia but by '43-44 rarely seen without it.........:-)

[Rover8FFR]

Depends on exactly what period, but the general standard for the '70s and '80s was NO insignia, other than rank and certain qualification/trade badges were displayed on combat smocks (eg: rank chevrons, WO and officer insignia, para wings & DZ patches for airborne troops, etc)...........thus the beret and badge were generally the only means of identifying individual units when worn......

 

It was really only after CS95 clothing came in that the current proliferation of tactical patches and insignia began to appear (late-90s onwards)............rather similar to battledress in the '40s....originally worn with very little insignia but by '43-44 rarely seen without it.........:-)

 

Totally correct the case of intermingling became key. Rank slides were used to hide an officer and then tactical flashes became a method to differentiate certain fractions in a very discreet way to prevent imposters or to identify friends from foes tactically. It also aligns with NATO and peace keeping force dress regs

[wdbikemad]

Totally correct the case of intermingling became key. Rank slides were used to hide an officer and then tactical flashes became a method to differentiate certain fractions in a very discreet way to prevent imposters or to identify friends from foes tactically. It also aligns with NATO and peace keeping force dress regs

 

When I left the mob in Dec '85, nothing had changed in our dress reg's for years......that in my unit at least (RAF Plod) were rigidly enforced....I spent 85% of my service in combat dress rather than blue-grey ('cept the beret) and the only permitted insignia on DPM was rank and (in our case) provost flashes worn below the rank-slides....a few individuals started wearing subdued name-tabs but these were uncommon and discouraged by SNCO's.......RAF Regt colleagues were in the the same boat......OD epaulette slides with "RAF Regt" in black......that was it.........

 

Clothing was '68 pattern combats, green foul-weather suits for inclement weather and DPM parkas for winter.........detachments and postings to colder climates and NI saw the issue of some DPM "crisp-packet" waterproofs and Canadian green parkas.......NI saw DPM arctic windproofs, urban patrol boots and gloves issued..........DPM "crap hats" were issued but hoods rarely seen...........lightweight OD TML's were also issued but not often worn.........

 

When I left in '85, the DMS high-leg combat boots had only just been issued to RAF Regt, but no one else....I finished my time with DMS ankle boots and puttees after my NI boots fell apart..........

 

The rubbish new style of DPM combat smocks and trousers (the ones where the pockets fell off) first appeared during '84 'though were instantly unpopular..........shirts were always the green KF hairy type.......

 

NBC suits were the old MK1 or 2, with very few dark green MK3's to be seen...........

 

Tin hat was the GS MK5..........mine was actually an even older MK3 (1944 !!!) but fitted with the later lining........

 

The 'tache was also a common sight !!!! I will post some old piccies when I get round to scanning 'em.....

 

Happy days......

[b2414]

This is what we wore in 69=70 Belfast this is me in Acompany 1 platoon 1st Green Howards

Hope it helps Cheers Bill

[JakLomas]

Hi again if it i only the rank and trade badges on th combat smock which arm would the WO2 badge go on

 

Thanks Jak

[wdbikemad]

Hi again if it i only the rank and trade badges on th combat smock which arm would the WO2 badge go on

 

Thanks Jak

 

Jak, a good point.....again, it's all down to the particular era.....Officers, RAF and RN personnel generally always wore rank on the epaulettes, usually on "slides" in OD or DPM fabric that could be removed for cleaning, etc........

 

Army NCOs on the other hand (below WO) generally wore rank insignia on the upper sleeves........on the old '60 pattern OD combat smock this was generally the 1960's white-on-khaki embroidered chevrons as used on other forms of dress and on both arms (or in regimental colours in some cases).......after 1970 when DPM clothing was introduced, this practice persisted for some time although by the mid-'70s many favoured stripes on the right arm only........WO's and related rank wore their insignia on the lower forearms of both sleeves (generally)......Para's similarly wore the rank and DZ patches on both sleeves.....

 

Mid-'70s onward saw rank chevrons for combats replaced by a subdued variety, a smaller "patch" with the rank embroidered in dark-brown on a green nylon base cloth.......these were worn on the right sleeve only and lasted well into the mid-1990's.......WO's and related ranks had similar insignia, again usually only worn on the right forearm......Para's now adopted similar although the DZ patch was still occasionally worn on both sleeves......

[JakLomas]

Ok thanks for all the help everybody

 

Jak

[AlienFTM]

A couple of comments (trying not to tread on what other have written, but bear in mind that every unit's interpretation of dress regs varies (and every soldier's interpretation of his unit's dress regs ...). In no particular order.

 

The new new square rank badges for DPM started to appear about 1975/6, but unless you were promoted, you retained the old version (as described above). It was normal to black out NCO stripes so that they did not become targets, but I remember one lad had been promoted Lance Jack just before I arrived and he deliberately didn't, so that his peers could see he had been promoted. He took a lot of stick.

 

Many units also painted beret badges black. As NI Armoured Car Regiment, responsible for 53% of the border and far removed from the bulk of Op Banner forces (indeed, NI Armoured Car regiment was a permanent Arms Plot posting of 18 months - later 2 years - not an Op Banner tour of 4 - later 6 - months. NI Armoured Car Regiment was later restyled NI Armoured Recce Regt to stay in line with the rest of the RAC Recce line, but the hardware didn't change until much later), there was no doubting who we were, so we didn't bother. Besides, the red felt badge backing would have shown through anyway so what was the point?

 

NI gloves were similar to the Gloves, Combat later on general issue about the end of the 70s, but had padded fingers (less the index fingers for shooting).

 

Many units wore combat trousers as uniform; maybe as many preferred lightweights (individuals with the olive green precursors to lightweights could wear them as an option since formal parades did not happen). My first uniform faux pas was to wear combat trousers while all around me wore lightweights. My second faux pas was, having read the instructions on the flak jacket to wear it under the combat jacket, to wear it under the combat jacket. No!

 

As an armoured car regiment, some personnel wore webbing cut down to consist simply of 57 pattern belt, one magazine pouch and a water bottle.

 

Regimental accoutrements. Being cavalry, whose purpose in warfare is to bring style and panache to what would otherwise just be an ugly brawl, we wore a navy blue towelling scarf.

 

But we have covered this ground over and over, so I shan't whitter on any more.

 

;o)

[Bazz]

NI 70s-80s.

[43rdrecce]

Mention has been made of the small square embroidered rank chevrons. Does anyone know when the woven type was introduced? These are jacquard woven ie flat not raised embroidery. A well known term for this type of weaving is 'BeVo' as the Germans used it extensively in WW2 on cost grounds.

The problem with the woven type was that they required the edges to be turned over before stitching to the uniform. This I remember resulted in some decidedly dodgy looking efforts at sewing! At least the embroidered type had a raised stitched edge.

 

Anyone know when they came in? Have a full set somewhere which I acquired around 1982 and have been boxed up ever since. They obviously pre date 82.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Scotch Harry]

Could and am probably wrong but was told by some "expert" a while back that the At least the embroidered type had a raised stitched edge. were specific to the Royal Marines??

[43rdrecce]

Thanks. You could be right. Here's a photo of the set I put together years back. Top left is one of the embroidered type as comparison.

 

Not sure when these woven ones date from. Also note the housewife I'd stored them in! I seem to remember someone asking about post war sewing kits. This one from 1955 has a rubberised lining so may have been a jungle issue. Otherwise very similar in dimensions to the WW2 effort. Also has the khaki angola piece for the needles.

 

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[wdbikemad]

I think mid/late 70s introduction, coming not too long after DPM dress came into service from 71 onwards (74 for the TA).........the full range is listed in the '86 MoD combat clothing catalogue (section CG)..........

 

The smaller embroidered version are Marine issue, usually seen on the sleeve of the pully and often on the front of the crap hat and arctic hat.....

 

Various private-purchase versions could also be obtained from a variety of sources.........

 

You haven't got the full range there if the QM list is anything to go by......it reads:-

 

"Conductors SSM and Master Gunners 1st Class - Royal Arms in wreath

Cpls - 2 bar

L/Cpls - 1 bar

L/Cpls HC (Household Cavalry) - 2 bar with small crown above

Sgt - 3 bar worn on right arm

S/Sgt - 3 bar with small crown above

WO1 - Royal Arms

WOII - Crown in wreath

WII - Large crown"

 

All items have their own NSN.........and are described as "Badge, Rank, Arm, Woven Cloth, Dark Brown, Green Background"......for "Temperate and Tropical Combat Dress"........

Edited January 18, 2013 by wdbikemad