fv1609 Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I know what it is & which service used it. I think I know how it works. But I don't know the bigger picture of its particular application & what it worked in conjunction with. Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougiebarder Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Is it some sort of naval two radio and intercom combining box? Secure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted October 4, 2011 Author Share Posted October 4, 2011 Is it some sort of naval two radio and intercom combining box? Secure? Well done for having a go, but I know you do like these sort of challenges:D Naval yes, because the front of it has a "Pattern no" & inside the switches have "AP" numbers. Not an intercom but I can see your line of thought. There are some security aspects to it. I don't know the era but I would have thought 1940s-50s. Time to show a bit more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Suslowicz Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Hmmm... It's got nine keyswitches , a lid that locks them in position once set, a ten way connector that is unlikely to be Army (probably Air Ministry) and a bank of three pushbuttons that may be an A/B/cancel. I'd say it's RAF and for setting some kind of recognition signal or indicator - three rows of three lights to display one of two patterns or turned off completely? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Suslowicz Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 For setting IFF units? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 If you press button B, do you get your money back ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted October 4, 2011 Author Share Posted October 4, 2011 Hmmm... It's got nine keyswitches , a lid that locks them in position once set, a ten way connector that is unlikely to be Army (probably Air Ministry) and a bank of three pushbuttons that may be an A/B/cancel. I'd say it's RAF and for setting some kind of recognition signal or indicator - three rows of three lights to display one of two patterns or turned off completely? Chris Chris I don't think it is RAF as there are no familiar Vocabulary codes. I think "Pattern" is more leaning to Admiralty Pattern & indeed the key switches all have Admiralty Pattern numbers on them inside. Unfortunately I omitted to take an internal view. Inside there is small electromagnetically driven selector switch with perhaps nine banks to match the key switches. It resembles a small version of telephone exchange selector. I'm sure you are right Chris that it is some sort of IFF system whereby a Morse code identifier can be programmed by the key switches. To what system it is linked to I do not know. I imagine the speed of the keying is fairly rapid. So I don't know whether the keying is initiated by receiving a triggering signal to interrogate it, whether it is a continuous (please do not attack me) beacon or whether it might be auto-initiated at the beginning & end of a transmission of messages. I wonder whether it was used to send an identifier or whether it was a way of specifying the code that a message might be encrypted with. A, B, & I are push button selectors. I note that it is to be used in conjunction with REC. P43A. That sounds like a receiver but I can find no references to it. I used to have an Admiralty Receiver I think it was a P58 that covered something like 400-650 Mc/s, but I can find nothing about that either. If all else fails on here & nobody recognises it I may contact http://www.rnmuseumradarandcommunications2006.org.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted October 4, 2011 Author Share Posted October 4, 2011 If you press button B, do you get your money back ? Oh what a give away. Don't tell me you used to go round pressing button B to see if there was 4d left in there by a previous user who couldn't get connected:wow: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Oh what a give away. Don't tell me you used to go round pressing button B to see if there was 4d left in there by a previous user who couldn't get connected:wow: Got it in one .... you have found me out :blush: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyFowler Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 There are some very "mature" people on this forum ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 There are some very "mature" people on this forum ! Andy, I take it you are too young to remember phoneboxes with buttons A and B . .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyFowler Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Andy, I take it you are too young to remember phoneboxes with buttons A and B . .. Richard , I have seen them but only in period dramas on the TV ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) Those of us of a certain age will also remeber the RN term 'Floggeltoggle'. They will also remeber that pice of alchemy known a sthe 'Thermionic Valve' (Pay attention children there will be a test afterwards) Clive the device looks very like a tester for Magnatron valves. Edited October 5, 2011 by Tony B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 something to do with switching codes, perhaps for use with a signalling lamp or morse key? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 Those of us of a certain age will also remeber the RN term 'Floggeltoggle'. They will also remeber that pice of alchemy known a sthe 'Thermionic Valve' (Pay attention children there will be a test afterwards) Clive the device looks very like a tester for Magnatron valves. Some interesting reminiscences there Tony, but I can't follow why it would have anything to do with magnetrons which require tens of kVs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 something to do with switching codes, perhaps for use with a signalling lamp or morse key? Yes Richard switching codes in a sense. It seems to be a programmable keyer for Morse code characters. I built one using a chip so that I could send my callsign automatically at the beginning & end of a transmission or in a repeat cycle to identify my signal as a beacon. When the motor inside this grey box rotates it switches in turn the selected dot, dash or space of each of the key switches in the manner that has been selected. I don't think this would be for lamp signalling. Too complicated a device for a small signal lamp & inappropriate for a large lamp where the keying is done with shutters & the lamp is on all the time because of the time lag in heating up a large filament bulb. So I'm sure it is a programmable Morse keyer. But no idea whether the signal it sends is an indicator of the code/cipher that the message will be encrypted in, a station identifier preceding/ending a transmission, a continuous beacon identifier (for navigation or IFF) or triggered by an IFF interrogation signal/command. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Some interesting reminiscences there Tony, but I can't follow why it would have anything to do with magnetrons which require tens of kVs. Not for basic testing. It was the key socket that made me think of a valve base. A Looong time ago I worked somewhere that had a tester for all the themionic valves in Aircraft sets, particullaly Intra's old DC3's. Looked very similar. It also struck me as A & B being turrets may have been some form of gun laying device linked to Radar. (It had been a long night ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Suslowicz Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Chris I don't think it is RAF as there are no familiar Vocabulary codes. I think "Pattern" is more leaning to Admiralty Pattern & indeed the key switches all have Admiralty Pattern numbers on them inside. Unfortunately I omitted to take an internal view. Inside there is small electromagnetically driven selector switch with perhaps nine banks to match the key switches. It resembles a small version of telephone exchange selector. I'm sure you are right Chris that it is some sort of IFF system whereby a Morse code identifier can be programmed by the key switches. To what system it is linked to I do not know. I imagine the speed of the keying is fairly rapid. So I don't know whether the keying is initiated by receiving a triggering signal to interrogate it, whether it is a continuous (please do not attack me) beacon or whether it might be auto-initiated at the beginning & end of a transmission of messages. I wonder whether it was used to send an identifier or whether it was a way of specifying the code that a message might be encrypted with. A, B, & I are push button selectors. I note that it is to be used in conjunction with REC. P43A. That sounds like a receiver but I can find no references to it. I used to have an Admiralty Receiver I think it was a P58 that covered something like 400-650 Mc/s, but I can find nothing about that either. If all else fails on here & nobody recognises it I may contact http://www.rnmuseumradarandcommunications2006.org.uk/ Right, that's a MUCH better photograph, I can actually read most of the lettering. My guess: Code setting unit for a navigation beacon (ship or shore based). I doubt very much that a receiver is in any way involved, and the lettering at bottom right probably expands to: "Stowage position for plug for receptacle P43A, insert appropriate plug in P43A for normal or low power working." P43A was probably a selector that determined whether the transmitter was in low (for tuning/testing) or high power mode. Navigation beacons sent a morse identification signal of 1, 2 or 3 letters, so that explains the "Dash - Space - Dot" positions for the keyswitches, Best, Chris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 (edited) Chris that all sounds very feasible. Annoyed I didn't take a picture of the inside when I had the chance (the item is not mine) What do you reckon on push-switches A, B & I? I'm trying to envisage what electrical role they would play in the switching. Maybe being 3 switches they could rearrange the sequence of the 9 key switches, so that even with 9 switches selected at the press of a button each trio could be put in a different order, allowing instant changing to two further sequences of Morse characters? PS Or were you thinking, pressing say I made 'normal' keying, then say A pressed space & dash swapped. Then pressing B space & dot swapped for instance? Edited October 6, 2011 by fv1609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon_M Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 You could almost see that nailed to the wall of a lighthouse, and used for sending out different coded flashes rather than Morse signals I'll bet the part and type numbers don't show up in a search because it would have been secret for most of it's life, even though it is a fairly basic piece of kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 As Gordon said could have been very secret. Various black light and ultra violet beacons were used to locate agent landing/pick up sites, and approach routes such as D-Day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Suslowicz Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Chris that all sounds very feasible. Annoyed I didn't take a picture of the inside when I had the chance (the item is not mine) What do you reckon on push-switches A, B & I? I'm trying to envisage what electrical role they would play in the switching. Maybe being 3 switches they could rearrange the sequence of the 9 key switches, so that even with 9 switches selected at the press of a button each trio could be put in a different order, allowing instant changing to two further sequences of Morse characters? PS Or were you thinking, pressing say I made 'normal' keying, then say A pressed space & dash swapped. Then pressing B space & dot swapped for instance? Not sure about that, but I suspect that the "I" button is the "Off" position, due to the wording on the plate. I don't think it's for shuffling the sequence, because you would build a two letter call (say "AK") as "down, up, centre, up, down,up" with the rest centred, but the codes you can use are limited by the number of morse elements in the letters: HH is four dots, a space, and four dots. If it's for an airfield approach, A & B might be for switching the approach pattern for opposite directions (you need dots on one side of the runway, dashes on the other, and they "fill in" to give a constant signal when you're correctly lined up). On the other hand... Airfield beacon: A for daytime (white button) and it flashes a visible signal, B for night (black button), I for "Off" (red button) - enemy close enough to use it to locate you (or you're changing the code and don't want to send a garbled signal). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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