Kuno Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 The Libyan Capital of Tripolis is undergoing massive civil construction works at that time. During excavations for a new residence quarter at the seashore at the western limits of the city, a WW2 tank has been unearthed. Obviously its is one of US origin, a SHERMAN. Personally I am not that familiar with such products, would anybody be able to tell me more about the particular type and its details? Maybe also something about its service during the desert campaign of WW2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapper Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Hi Kuno, If the Shermanistas and yourself can collate enough info. Can we use it in an article for the front end? This is a great story. Thanks for sharing it. No doubt the Sherman brains will be of assistance. Great snaps, btw! MB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuno Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 Snapper - use it. I have the feeling that this tank was used for target practicing. It has too many impact holes for battle damage only. Further, the driving gear on both sides is damaged by shooting at the tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Kuno, Great find! Thanks for sharing the pics. This Sherman is an M4A4 or Sherman V (British designation of the M4A4 Medium Tank). I don´t think these were used during the North African campaign. IIRC they first came into use in Italy. Do not have my references at hand here and now, but I´m sure Adrian will chime in shortly. Could well be this Sherman came to Lybia post-war when the British assisted to build their armed forces. The damage could have been inflicted on a range while being used for target practice. Would love to be proved wrong though! Thanks, Hanno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuno Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 Tripolis was not defended by the Axis forces. The last stand was made south of Tripolis at az-Azizia. Might be that some tanks were lost there but not near Tripoli. I remember a shooting range in Cirenaica. Bizzare thing - Amphibious tanks in the middle of the desert ;-) They were riddled over and over by bullets - the British planes from el-Adem AFB... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joris Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Amazing news, never found anything like it in my garden When can I come and pick it u? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Hanno is this not an M4A2 , because the fuel tank dividing plates are not M4A4 but M4A2 , front end is also single piece, but that could be changed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Hanno is this not an M4A2 , because the fuel tank dividing plates are not M4A4 but M4A2 I was looking at the distance between the bogies and the small plate welded to the rear of the splash ring around the turret. But like I said, I would love to be proved wrong, you should know better as you´re one of those lucky blokes who gets to crawl over and under one in their spare time! H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapper Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Snapper - use it. I have the feeling that this tank was used for target practicing. It has too many impact holes for battle damage only. Further, the driving gear on both sides is damaged by shooting at the tank. Great. Let's see what we can quickly put together with info from Hanno, Maurice, Adrian and anyone who is up for it. Then we'll move on with it. Many thanks, MB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Boogie distance looks like M4A4 , and hatches as wel , but from what I can see in engine bay , not M4a4 , Barrel clamp on front is also not common on M4A4 , So ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Boogie distance looks like M4A4 , and hatches as wel , but from what I can see in engine bay , not M4a4 , Barrel clamp on front is also not common on M4A4 , So ?? Lybia was under British and French administration in the late 1940´s, So ?? maybe a French modified Sherman like the M4A4 T (transformé)? But as you know the M4A4 T was equipped with the Continental R975 engine. Could that be a possibility for the discrepancies you see in the enigne bay? - Hanno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuno Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 The French were not a Tripolis. They only occupied the Fezzan (southwest of the Country). They had no tanks available! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 When the french did Radial Transformé `s they left side plates next to fuel tanks in , and added a little one at the front of this plate to cover the vent space . Adaption of engine mounts , and strip welded on fuel tank plates for the cowling . This one has holes drilled in the plate like some M4a2`s had , and the two filler neks sticking up behind turret in front of engine bay?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 The French were not a Tripolis. They only occupied the Fezzan (southwest of the Country). They had no tanks available!Kuno, I´m thinking in the post-war scenario, when Lybia was under British and French administration. No doubt these countries helped Lybia to build up its armed forces as part of the process to become independent in 1951. So, this Sherman tank which seems not to be a wartime relic (Libya's biggest source of income in the late 1940s was from scrap metal salvaged from the World War II battlefields!), was most likely brought into the country by either Great Britain or France. Those amphibious vehicles you saw in the desert were LVT3´s, these were ex-British Army as well. - Hanno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuno Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 @mcspool; I am talking "postwar" as well. The French had nothing to do in the North. They occupied Fezzan to have a land connection from Tunisia down to Chad. I am not aware about any supplies to Libya by the French (they had to build up their own army first ;-)). Presume that the tank was used by the British. Cannot say who used the LVTs but presume that it was the British as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 It was an M4A4 coverted to M4A2 engine wise. That was not uncommon, there were examples of that in Egypt and a similar vehicle has recently been imported into the UK from Israel, though in much better condition. I also think it has been on a range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuno Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 Since you mention Egypt. Could be that it is a remnant of the Egyptian army which changed the side at one of the conflicts between these two countries. Might be brought to Tripoli for testing later on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 @mcspool; I am talking "postwar" as well. The French had nothing to do in the North. They occupied Fezzan to have a land connection from Tunisia down to Chad. I am not aware about any supplies to Libya by the French (they had to build up their own army first ;-)). Kuno, Thanks for educating me! - Hanno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuno Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 @ Hanno; as far as I know, the only real French garrison was the Foreign Legion at Sebha (with some tiny posts in the other villages). There was a supply route for trucks via Ghadamis - Hamada al-Hamra - Sebha - Murzouk - Gatroun - Chad (and the planes used until the mid 1950s were not seldom of German origin: Ju.52!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 It was an M4A4 coverted to M4A2 engine wise. That was not uncommon, there were examples of that in Egypt Indeed, the M4A4 with twin diesel engines was used by Egypt, but as far as I can ascertain, was orginally a French modification. Since you mention Egypt. Could be that it is a remnant of the Egyptian army which changed the side at one of the conflicts between these two countries. Might be brought to Tripoli for testing later on... From wikipedia I learned the Libyan–Egyptian War was a short border war in July 1977. By that time the Sherman tank must have been regelated to second-line duties, if not struck off charge already. It the Sherman was still on strength, could the Egyptian Army have risked using an obsolete tank, even in a "border war"? Was there an earlier armoured clash? The plot thickens! H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuno Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 Sorry, I am not familiar with this wars but cannot recall any other as the 1977 one. Was just a thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuno Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 Colleagues; would it make sense if I would provide some measurements to help to clearly identify the tank? You would have to tell me what is of interest. Maybe post a sketch here and mark where I shall put the measure-tape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 (edited) No need, it is clearly an M4A4 converted to GM twin diesels. The giveaways are the little square plate welded on the rear end of the turret splash ring, only fitted to Chrysler built tanks,the bogie spacing which on an M4A4 is 1.6M, other Shermans having 1.45M centres giving a noticeable gap between the roadwheels. It also has the air deflector hinges on lower rear plate which is only fitted to M4A4 as well a a host of smaller details. It has been modified to twin diesels and this can be seen by the layout of the fuel and oil filler pipes as well as the fuel tank cover plates. It looks like you can just see the exhaust casting as well which will be fitted above the cut down rear doors. Edited February 9, 2009 by Adrian Barrell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuno Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 @ Adrian; could you also give a "birthdate" to this particular modified type of tank and say, which army had used them? (I see your avatar and guess you know everything about Shermans ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 @ Adrian; could you also give a "birthdate" to this particular modified type of tank and say, which army had used them? (I see your avatar and guess you know everything about Shermans ;-) Kuno, I wish! I know everything about nothing..... If you could find the hull number, stamped on the towing lugs, I could give you a month and year of build. As to when it was modified, who knows. It's a lateish hull so the number will be 5 figures, something like 2XXXX. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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