I have a dream - a Military Vehicle Museum Co-operative

[Larry]

For many MV owners the problems of storing their pride and joy could be a thing of the past if everyone got together to acquire a site which could be made into a MV museum - to provide a place for storage and yet be open to the public especially in the autumn and winter months. Owners would be free to take their vehicles to events but with a large enough 'stock' there would always be something to see for the public including a museum shop. The MV owners would have shared workshop facilities and a pool of experts most weekends.

 

If the site was something like an ex-farm or hangars on an old airfield there would also be the opportunity to hold MV rallies etc on site, so this would provide funds for its up keep. If the facilities are good enough there would be no reason why other vehicle clubs couldn't use the site for rallies either - a ploy already used by Railway Preservation Museums and other historic sites to attract business their way.

 

I appreciate this is not an easy task but when I think of the vehicles I have had to pass over for lack of storage it makes me weep! Of couse there will be owners saying the site may be miles from home. But on the plus side there are many old WW2 vehicles out there that are hardly ever taken out, either through high fuel costs or lack of spares. Many are in need of proper storage so they could be in the museum and contribute to its appeal instead of being hidden in people's leaking garages.

 

I have been going to MV rallies for the best part of 30 years and have seen the number of 'old timers' slowly disappear and give way to newer types that were not even in service when I started attending MV events! When I went to the MVT National rallies held at Thruxton 25 years ago I saw Morris CS8, Morris Quads, Canadian CMP 15 cwt & 3 tonners, Universal Carriers, Austins Katties & Austin 3 ton, Bedfords MW, OY & QL, Ford WOT-1 etc and some real rarities too and yet many have simply disappeared. I doubt they have all been scrapped but fear for their long term safety, so perhaps an MV museum would be the solution and even help get them working again. I wonder how many interesting MVs there are out there - owned by people who are unable to keep them in good order and yet unable to part with their pride and joy?

 

I know many MV owners are not exactly flush with funds but 500 people putting up £1000 would be a start and with a Lottery Fund Grant, the idea could be a reality. After all they built the American Air Museum hangar at Duxford with Lotto funds. Why not build a MV museum the same way?

 

Your thoughts please!

[ArtistsRifles]

Basic idea is excellent and well worth pursueing!

 

Only thing I can think of, off-hand, relates to your comment regarding "Of couse there will be owners saying the site may be miles from home" - using my home locale as an example (sorry!!) then siting such a museum in a place where I could realistically get to it to perform the maintenance required on the vehicle of my dreams and home again the same day would not be suitable for anyone north of Birmingham - and thats pushing the envelope.

Ideally you'd be looking at at least two or more locales - say North, South East, South west for starters.

[russell sprout]

Sign me up!!!!

 

Thought about it myself in the past but the logistics has always put me off... I know plenty of open air museums that are more than willing to except vehicles but getting them under cover is a real problem

[Rlangham]

Although I don't own an MV, it's certainly a good idea and i'd visit - theres tons of aviation and other transport museums out there, but not many military vehicle ones, so would be a very good idea, also means that vehicles could be seen by lots of people rather than only be shown at one event a year or so, possibly creating more interest in the hobby etc

[ArtistsRifles]

I guess what's needed is a living version of Duxfords "Land Warfare" hall.

In a way it's a shame that one exists as this proposal would be ideal.

 

As a thought then - do any other existing museums have the space and the inclination to host such a thing as Larry's idea??? I'm thinking of places like the Shuttleworth collection or the National Motor Museum at Gaydon or Beaulieu (Sp?)????

[Larry]

I agree with you Neil - Duxford would be a good place for such a museum but whether the IWM would want it I don't know. I can seen that it would conflict with the Land Warfare Hall but then again there is more than one hangar with aircraft in it at Duxford, so the more attractions they have on offer to the public the better for them. The down side is that entry fees to the museum would go to the IWM and the MV events would be at a date of their choice, so as not to interupt with their flying days. Perhaps Gaydon would be a better alternative though if the MV museum was a lodger on their site, the same problems would occur over entry fees and event dates. The more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that we should have our own site so that we could set our own agenda and become a well known attraction in our own right.

 

Also I think that any proposed MV museum would need the support of the MVT or other MV club, so that it could serve as a place for social events, AGMs and MV related lectures, and provide an archive for technical manuals & information. If it provided a few nissen huts to allow people to stay over night, it would allow travel from further afield for MV owners. Now does anyone know how much an old airfield would cost to buy or at least to buy the the technical site with hangars and a bit of ground large enough to stage an MV event the size of Beltring?

[Richard Grosvenor]

Hello,

 

It's a very good idea but I would think that nowadays it would be very difficult to get off the ground. Don't get me wrong if we had the necessary buildings we would love to house such a museum.

I think it would be finding a suitable location that would be the biggest problem. Most Military type museums tend to be housed on old airfields, which is ideal, large open spaces, large (and in some cases very large) buildings and say 20 years ago these places were worthless as they had no other use so were cheap to buy. Now when an airfield is no longer needed it's turned into an industrial area or a massive housing estate, a whole new township in some cases.

 

While Duxford is a brilliant museum the MV's are very much the poor relation when compared to the planes. I was speaking to someone who has first hand experience of dealing with Duxford. He was saying while they will spend hundreds of thousands restoring a plane the Land Warfare hall has non-running vehicles that only need a £30 part to get them going again but they won't/can't buy the parts.

And just look where the LWHall is, miles away from everything else. The Teletubbies house, I mean the American building, was allowed near the original WW2 hangers, but if the LWhall was any further away it would no longer be on the airfield :?

 

Regards

Richard

[Guest matt]

There are ex military sites that could be used,and they do come onto the market but it all depends exactly where the proposed museum/collection would be located. unfortunately many historic military buildings have already been lost but if a site of historical interest could be found Larry's idea could serve two purposes,to provide MV owners with a safe,secure place for their vehicles where the public could have access,AND preserve the site and buildings.

 

Unfortunately the costs wouldn't stop with buying the site,health and safety would be a major factor,as would insurance.

 

The Muckleburgh collection in Norfolk is a good example of a privately owned museum.

 

Matt.

[Jack]

It's ideas like this that make's things happen, no matter how 'off the wall' or 'whacky' that they may seem. This country has lost a certain amount of its flare in this regard so bring it on Larry, don't ever be afraid to throw ideas out there.

 

A project like this needs to be brainstormed (...which is happening on here) and you will be surprised with what comes out of that. I think a project like this has a lot of mileage and is a credible one.

 

It may be wise to have a look at it on a regional level, this way it will be of interest to a great deal more people and would become manageable. The lack of storage is a problem for many people which you have clearly identified.

 

 

 

Best wishes.

 

Jack.

[ArtistsRifles]

OK - bit more brainstorming here:

 

Solo site

For:

[*]Any proceeds raised go to the owners there

[*]No issues with access/working

[*]Freedom - no restrictions on what's done, how, when and where

[*]Ability to offer overnight rooming for owners[/list:u]

 

Against:

[*]Initial purchase (or lease) costs of large enough site

[*]Insurance bills

[*]Service (operating) bills (security, gas, electric, rates etc.)

[*]Meeting H&SE standards

[*]Probably need to be replicated in "Zones" around the country[/list:u]

 

Co-Located site

For:

[*]Minimal initial outlay required (if any)

[*]Minimal operational costs

[*]Access to support facilities if needed

[*]Numerous site already exist sans MV's

[*]Known establishment[/list:u]

 

Against:

[*]Any income would go to the existing owners automatically - no revenue generated for owners

[*]Need to comply with owners existing arrangements re. events.

[*]Need to comply with owners established SOP's

[*]Minimal chance of overnight accommodation being available[/list:u]

 

I think that sums up the views thus far?

Larry - I used Duxford as an example of co-location, not as a possible site I do agree with Richard though - their LWF hall IS tacked too far away!!

My thoughts were that if you could find existing museums you could cover the country, finding ones close enough to people to reduce travel costs etc and also avoid the big start-up and running costs. Yes - all entry funds would go to the owners but maybe a portion of revenue could be fed to the MV group based there to cover their operational costs? This would have to be part of the negotiations I guess. Bear in mind they would be covering ALL the operational costs And yes, the group would be stuck having to comply with the schedule of events of the main museum - at least for the first year or so. Again negotiations can be held when the MV collection is shown to be an attraction in it's own right as doubtless it would be.

 

Maybe a good starting point would be to compile a list of owners, in conjunction with the MVT and any local clubs, who prepared to participate with their locations/vehicles - then look at either:

[*]A centralized location point to do our own thing

[*]Divide the list into zones and look at whats available in each zone to do our own thing

[*]Look at existing museums in the zones who might be prepared to participate[/list:u]

Then once you have an idea of numbers and location(s) look at the cost involved on each level.

 

Personally I believe this is an excellent idea you've had and possibly the answer to a lot of problem the morons ruining the country right now might have in store for us in the future!!! Good luck with it!!!

[Larry]

I know it will not be easy but where there is a will there is a way.

 

When ever I take the family on holiday around the UK I try to visit any military museums there are in the area to give them my support and it does make me wonder how some of the aviation museums survive, when they are hidden away in the countryside! Perhaps they are getting support from the Tourist Board / County Council?

 

While some aviation museums make depressing viewing, with rotting exhibits left out doors, this is not what I propose for what could become a national collection with a representative type from each class of vehicle (though not necessarily tracked armour which the Tank Museum does do best). So further questions:- What grants are available? Which local / county councils more museum friendly? (Where I live in the London Boro of Hillingdon there isn't a single museum of any kind!)

 

With regard to Neil's mention of what the morons may have in store to drive us off the road the less said the better but be on your guard!

 

However if someone owned a working historic MV that could no longer be used on the road, an MV museum would be a good place for it and it could still be run up at shows. But would this be prevented under the Road Traffic Acts which I am told apply to areas where the public have access, including MV shows? If so it would be a shame if some rare truck was prevented from entering the arena. Though come to think of it how do the heavy armour / non-road legal types 'get away with it'?

 

Lastly it has been suggested that with its high roof, an aircraft hangar is not the best place to preserve vehicles - so how did the government keep all those Green Goddesses then?

[tyler]

Hi, Ive been looking around and this is what you can get,

 

283.9 sq m (3,056 sq ft) Hangar/Storage.

New Lease/Licence For Term To Be Agreed.

Guide Rent: £6,500 pa

 

These hangers a fairly big any bigger and you'll be talking T2 size and big £££, this particular hanger is a WW2 Robin hanger (which has a WW2 Fiarchild aircraft based in it), based on the same airfeild where I worked until July 05, we could fit 2 big Twins and 5 Single engined aircraft in our hanger which was smaller,.

 

Talking about Duxford for a mo, I dont think anyone could build any more hanger type bulidings on their site, due to lack of space, as all the land to the front, side and the feild behind (military vehicle exibitors camping feild) the Land Warfare Hall is used as parking (aswell as other parts of the site) on airshow days, and anyone that has been to one of their airshows recently will tell you they pack them like Sardines as it is,

also the new Airspace hanger formally The Superhanger, has taken up more carparking space, so as it is Duxford themselfs cant bulid anything bigger than a shed let alone anyone else .

 

Tyler.

[Richard Grosvenor]

Hello everyone!

 

As Matt said Muckleburgh is a brilliant example of a privately owned museum and is well worth a visit ( or two ).

 

I'd forgot about Health and Safety! But I'm sure this and other problems can be got around.

 

Larry, there was an article in one of the MV magazines about the storage of the Green Goddesses, apparently the buildings were air-conditioned and dehumidified. The only problem I could see with a very high building would be the problem of heating all that extra space. Probably :?

 

Tyler, 3056 sq ft doesn't sound enough. My "shed" is 60' x 30' which equals 1800sq ft. 3056 sq ft is only about a 75' x 40' building. Judging from the personnel door of the pictured building it looks alot bigger than that. :shock:

 

But all in all I think the general idea of a museum is a very good one.

 

Regards

Richard

[tyler]

Hi Richard, it may be that the pic isn't the actual hanger thats for rent, or that the hanger pictured has been halfed off inside?

 

Tyler

[Dougiebarder]

With all the news reports today about supermarket's buying land just to stop the competition from using it, you might as well ask one of them if they would sponser a museum on one of the sites. :lol:

[Richard Grosvenor]

Hi Tyler,

I didn't know if I click on the image it makes it bigger. I can now see it's got 5 roof lights so about 75'-80' long is about right . So it looks like it's the right building.

 

Regards

Richard

[Larry]

Interesting that Dougiebarder should suggest co-operating with Supermarkets as another idea I have, to throw in the to the discussion, is for the MV musuem to be co-located with other museums not necessarily contected in subject, so that there would be something for 'er in doors' to look at and get away from all those green lorries. Almost like a retail park for museums but not of course in a city, but in easy reach and still with a show ground.

 

Flambards Experience near Helson in Cornwall has Aviation, Wartime and Victorian era museums grouped together, and although it is a theme park it gives an idea of the potential. Gloucester Docks used to be another place that had the Gloucester Regt Musuem located near to Mr Opie's world famous museum of household products and advertising throughout the ages, a museum relating to the docks and shops etc. However Gloucester Council decided that the old warehouses were better used for yuppie flats so the museums had to go! Only the Regt Museum remains!

 

So there must be other collections, including Mr Opie's, that need a home that would not mind having an influx of visitors from MV events held throughout the year.

 

As for where you site such a museum, its likely that the south or east coast towns would have the most co-operative councils and yet for members it realy needs to be located somewhere in the midlands like Gaydon!!!!

[ArtistsRifles]

Now there's an interesting concept!! Using AutoRoute there are around 64 varying museums within a 30 mile radius of Gaydon - assuming you feel Gaydon itself would not be appropriate (last time I was there the sole MV contributions were some Landrovers) - such as:

 

Arms and Armour museum

Sheep Street

Stratford Upon Avon

CV37 6

United Kingdom

Tel: +44 1789-292107

 

Midland Air Museum

Rowley Road

Baginton

Coventry

CV8 3

United Kingdom

Tel: +44 24-76301033

 

Museum of British Road Transport

27 Hales Street

Coventry

CV1 1

United Kingdom

Tel: +44 24-76832425

 

Wellington Aviation Museum

A44

Moreton in Marsh

GL56 0

United Kingdom

Tel: +44 1608-650323

 

Winchcombe Railway Museum

Gloucester Street

Winchcombe

Cheltenham

GL54 5

United Kingdom

Tel: +44 1242-602257

 

- just picking a few on f the ones that might match your idea. So maybe there's a degree of potential there??? I'd have thought any council would become VERY co-operative at the thought of more revenue from tourism ??

[ArtistsRifles]

Now there's an interesting concept!! Using AutoRoute there are around 64 varying museums within a 30 mile radius of Gaydon - assuming you feel Gaydon itself would not be appropriate (last time I was there the sole MV contributions were some Landrovers) - such as:

 

Arms and Armour museum

Sheep Street

Stratford Upon Avon

CV37 6

United Kingdom

Tel: +44 1789-292107

 

Midland Air Museum

Rowley Road

Baginton

Coventry

CV8 3

United Kingdom

Tel: +44 24-76301033

 

Museum of British Road Transport

27 Hales Street

Coventry

CV1 1

United Kingdom

Tel: +44 24-76832425

 

Wellington Aviation Museum

A44

Moreton in Marsh

GL56 0

United Kingdom

Tel: +44 1608-650323

 

Winchcombe Railway Museum

Gloucester Street

Winchcombe

Cheltenham

GL54 5

United Kingdom

Tel: +44 1242-602257

 

- just picking a few on f the ones that might match your idea. So maybe there's a degree of potential there??? I'd have thought any council would become VERY co-operative at the thought of more revenue from tourism ??

[John Pearson]

In the recent past, this idea has been tried, very successfully, at Bletchley Park but that has also shown a problem. They have been (or are about to be) made homeless with very little notice so all the MV owners are looking for storage at the same time in the same area. There is another example I know of as well, although not Military. The Aston Manor Transport Museum in Birmingham is a smart, fee charging museum which exhibits the best examples of vehicles owned by a group of preservationists, the remainder being secreted in various barns around the area, all being co-ordinated as a non profit making venture.

One distinct problem with the idea however is shown by the horrific fire in Scotland last year (year before?) when the prized possessions of a number of people all went up in flames together: presumably due to carelessness of just one person?

I was involved with the Aston Manor group in the early days of my restoration and it was a good system but beware getting involved with bus preservationists: they seem to talk in code 'I know where a J23 is for sale' (what the hell is a J23?) and if you quote a registration number they will tell you what it is, who built it, which company owned it and how many miles it has done!

My sons called them the "boring bus buggers"

(in case the last word does not print, it is like 'muggers' but starts with a 'b') :roll:

[Larry]

John,

 

Thanks for your input. I must admit that the fire in Scotland which destroyed alot of good MVs did cross my mind. But then I said to myself - that could happen to any important collection and if that was used that as an objection then there wouldn't be any museums. I think the circumstances of the fire in Scotland have been hard to determine but as a precaution it would be important for a future MV museum to separate the workshops from the area where other vehicles are dry stored and on display. I am sure that the health & safety people would insist that the exhibits would have dry fuel tanks until such time as they are to be used. As for the other fire precautions that would be left to the experts but the more I think about this idea the less I like the idea of using an aircraft hangar!

[79x100]

I like the idea of a museum that includes ongoing restorations although as an expat I couldn't really do more than pay to visit occasionally. There's no way that I would move my 'bike from it's nice centrally heated garage !

 

The fire risk is a problem (The National motorcycle Museum also went up in smoke and now they're busy faking all their former exhibits) If restoration is also to be included then you're never going to be able to weld without somebody standing-by with an extinguiser and a fire-blanket even if all they're going to do is laugh when your overalls go up in flames.

 

A further problem, especially if you're going to work on the vehicles is theft. I've worked in factories where if you dropped a spanner from a gantry, you never heard it hit the ground. On the other hand, if you lose your toolbox keys, it's always handy to have a Scouser around :lol: (JOKE)

 

On a more serious note, does anyone know what the real reasons were for the perpetual failure of the Museum of Army Transport at Beverley ?

It can't all have been down to their unhelpful attitude. Perhaps there really isn't sufficient demand for a "softskins" museum.

[Richard Grosvenor]

On a more serious note, does anyone know what the real reasons were fore the perpetual failure of the Museum of Army Transport at Beverley ?

It can't all have been down to their unhelpful attitude. Perhaps there really isn't sufficient demand for a "softskins" museum.

 

Hello,

Well I've heard a couple of reasons from different people, one was that visitor numbers were very low and another was the site and buildings had been under maintained for years and then large amounts of asbestos were found in the building and it would have cost too much to put it right.

But I suppose it was a mixture of both really.

 

Regards

Richard

[79x100]

Both visitor numbers and old building costs would still be relevant. All the more reason to make sure that the building and the location are right first time.

 

We can probably blame Ted Heath's Local Government Act for making a place that calls itself "Humberside" sound so unattractive to visit.