monty_stubble Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 Any ideas on the number which should go on a Matchless G3L (Frame number is 48273). I'm also a bit confused by the date allocated to the frame which by my knowledge is late 1942. Also lent out my book so can't check. Finally, how big should the "Flying M" be? All sizes are available from various suppliers. Any help gratefully received. Monty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welbike Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 (edited) I'll check in a minute about the C number, the metal winged <M> was only ever on early G3L's and then the loose wing variety, total width of 5 5/16" or 150.8mm. (postwar one piece badges are smaller) transfers were never issued until postwar civilian production, but in some instances the winged <M> was painted on the tank in white or silver. Cheers, Lex Edited May 13 by welbike additional info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monty_stubble Posted May 13 Author Share Posted May 13 Thanks, any idea who sells the badges? MS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welbike Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 Nobody has them, and repro's aren't made anymore, for a nice set be prepared to pay up to 500-600 euro's. (last G3WO complete tank, with panel and instruments 3500 was asked!!) But I would check your petrol tank first, if it has the screw bosses for the badges, sometimes bondo'd over, but looking inside the filler, they can be seen, if present at all. Lex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monty_stubble Posted May 13 Author Share Posted May 13 Don't think there are any holes. Certainly no filler. Looks like it's out with the paintbrush then. Did you find the "C" number? Monty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welbike Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 (edited) Regarding frame number 48273 that is from contract S1050 (the one after C14499), from late 1942, so no badges were fitted on this contract. The C number on the tank is listed as C5257374, but according to other numbers in the series this should be C5255673 so who knows what happened here. The bike was released from the Army on 11-11-1960, at Bowhouse, last user I cannot read. Postwar ERM number was 38ZB30, info on Key Card No. 439a. (scan of this card with appx. 15 bikes on it can be purchased from me for 20 euro's) See below sample scan of a Key Card, and a period picture of the same contract. (and yes, it has the badges! Parts lists cannot be trusted I guess!!!) Cheers, Lex Edited May 13 by welbike wrong number Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rewdco Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 (edited) I noticed a typo in your reply Lex: the census number should be C5255673. But as you say, frame number 48273 is listed in the KeyCards as C5257347, for an unknown reason. Something went wrong there... Some more pictures from the same contract: Edited May 13 by rewdco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 The G3L's shown with the flying M's are definitely either painted or transfers (I'd guess transfers which were available for 1937-38 bikes) A stick on version is available from https://classictransfers.co.uk/product/matchless-6822lc-155x78mm/ Which I have on mine. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welbike Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 Jan , have edited the number, my keyboard is not working properly! The petrol tank could have been changed at some part in it's immediate postwar life of course. Ron there were no prewar M transfers as far as I know, only metal badges, first the sole M, and later the additional wings, they must have still had thousands in stock to have manufactured the loose wings!! There are of course tanks with transfers, but they are all postwar manufactured, as these bikes soldiered on until the 60's. see picture. Cheers, Lex naamloos.bmp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 Sorry Lex, but there are enough war time pictures of G3L's with a none screwed on "M" Acording to Robert Derrick's (RIP) research, this first waterslide was fitted to the tank in 1937/38 (I don't know what model) The second image is for WW2. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welbike Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 Sorry Ron, but I do disagree with you somewhat, I don't know where Robert (RIP) got this info from, but it is not correct, I did research this a bit, and you can check for yourself on the Jampot DK archive; AJS and Matchless download page (jampot.dk) 1937 still had the lone M metal badges, and 1938 was the first year with the winged <M> badges, and even the cheapest 250cc model had the metal badges, furthermore there are no winged M transfers listed anywhere in the G3L parts lists, check Simon's parts database here: matchless.vercel.app/?part_name=transfer No tank transfers listed other than the tanktop one, of which I made the drawings for, so Robert could make them. But now it gets interesting, checking the 1946 parts list for the transfers here: S56 1946 =M= G3L G80.pdf (jampot.dk) I find the following number, 42-G3L-T57-T, and that suggests there was a transfer in 1942, when the metal badges were discontinued, but I think they were deleted very quickly, maybe that is what we see on the wartime pictures? and then as the bottom one in your post, the top one is postwar, I'm pretty sure of that. But I think a lot of them were painted on by the troops themselves also, or in the factory, like the b/w picture below, I believe this is a test model, for the Blue or Green un's editors, hence the front number plate, and the painted on winged <M> (notice the right hand wing is much bigger), maybe it was a government thing that it was compulsory to have the makers name on the tank of civvy used bikes? (it was so in Holland for the longest time) More research needed! Lex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 I can't disagree with your reaerch Lex. Never the less there are pictures of G3L's with a none screwed winged badge. But I find it hard to beleive that the riders bothered to paint them on. I guess this picture that Jan posted is a victory parade over your way? Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welbike Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 Well, I never said they never had anything on the tank after 1942, but it's very difficult to see what exactly was used. Your picture is in Amsterdam, I have better resolution somewhere, but got to go and do some actual work on my Matchless, instead of writing about them! Cheers, Lex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monty_stubble Posted May 14 Author Share Posted May 14 I may be wrong here, but I don't believe that serving personnel, in the middle of a conflict, would paint an "anatomically" perfect flying "M" on their bikes. Looking at the photos, while the logos may be different sizes, they are all consistent with the marque. That suggests transfers or factory paints. Monty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welbike Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 (edited) Monty, I will look at my 500+ pictures after Normandy, I am sure I have some that show a handpainted M on the tank, but no time for it now. But if you want to go with a transfer, use the bottom one in Ron's post, that would be safest. (picture added) Cheers, Lex Edited May 14 by welbike additional info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welbike Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 (edited) Ok, got some more info, and it's not getting any easier, first a petrol tank that was in storage up to 1964 or so, and believed to be of postwar production, due to the postwar Deep Bronze Green colour. It has the (what I think) later style transfers. Lex Edited May 23 by welbike Wrong picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welbike Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 (edited) So, yesterday I was visiting a friend, and he had just purchased a G3L tank, that has a late war colour, but also has a transfer, that I presumed to be postwar. It also has the tank top transfer, and I don't see that on the postwar tanks. The position of the tanktop transfer is slightly different to my original paint tank btw. Lex Edited May 23 by welbike additional info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welbike Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 Ok, last one for now, another tank with the later transfer, so I have officially shot myself in the foot now! Lex PS, note the "reserve" transfer on the side, I cannot find that on wartime pictures. PPS, Sorry I don't know who's pictures or tank these were? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monty_stubble Posted May 23 Author Share Posted May 23 What is the transfer on the top? Is it another winged M? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welbike Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 Read above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 It's under AMC at Classic Transfers . https://classictransfers.co.uk/product/amc-8452-33x55mm/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 Is the "Classic Transfers" information of any use to you Monty? Ron 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monty_stubble Posted May 24 Author Share Posted May 24 Bought a set. What do you use for varnish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 I hand paint over the transfers and just past the edges with Humbrol matt varnish. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.