Triumph 3HW

[Kevin Wells]

Hi

I’ve just purchased an exhaust system but the silencer seems a little narrow - The diameter is just over 70mm. Is this correct?

[Ron]

70mm? The size should be imperial 3" I have 3 WD Triumphs and all have the same 3" silencers. The twins had a bigger silencer 3 1/2" I think. The bigger silencer might have an issue with your kick starter?......Did yours come from my friends at Armours? 

Originally they were dull plated on the 3SW and 5SW and black painted for the 3HW. Ron

Edited January 10 by Ron

[Kevin Wells]

Hi Ron

it did come from Armours and to be honest I was more curious than anything as I too considered the kick starter. It’s just under 3” but all good otherwise

 

would you happen to know a source for the Olive Drab paint and which black paint would be appropriate for the silencer

I bought the bike when I was in India and love the dark green but am considering reverting to Olive. I’m assuming any bikes sent to India and the far east would originally have been Olive. 
 

the silencer is incorrect - possibly from another Triumph but more likely a bullet as the bracket is flat and has been been bent to make it fit

[Ron]

From 1944 in readiness for the invasion and to sort of comply with the US Olive, The British version was introduced. Before that from some point in 1942, Service Brown was the service colour. From the BS 381C colour range 298 is Olive Drab and 499 is Service Brown although I prefer the slightly darker 436 Dark Cammo Brown. I buy mine from a local auto paint company in single pack polyurethane matt. But they can add less matting agent for Eggshell, Satin, semi gloss or Gloss etc. 

Here's a 1942 bike I finished recently in 436.  https://www.paramountpowders.co.uk/colour-charts/bs381c-colour-chart

 

Ron

 

[10FM68]

On 1/10/2024 at 10:36 AM, Kevin Wells said:

 

 

would you happen to know a source for the Olive Drab paint and which black paint would be appropriate for the silencer

 

If you want to get as close to an authentic colour for a wartime British Army Olive Drab, then you can't go to the  modern BS381C range as the olive drab there dates from 1988 and isn't actually very close to the wartime Olive Drab.  My advice would be to buy a 14ml tin of this for £3 +p&p:  "SCC15 Olive Drab" from these people, https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/collections/british-army then paint a swatch and take it to a paint dealer and get it matched.  Currently Colourcoats paint is about the closest you can get for WWII British AFVs.  The only disadvantage is that they sell out quickly as they only make the paint in small batches (SCC2, the base paint for Olive Drab's predecessor, for example, is currently sold out). 

Unfortunately, the Standard Camouflage Colours (SCC) weren't named until No15 Olive Drab, but SCC2 is close to dark earth though more frequently called simply brown.  Any disruptive camouflage pattern would then be in SCC1A - a dark brown, or SCC14 a blue-black.  (There are other combinations involving the shades in use prior to the introduction of the SCC range and these were in use prior to 1942 (and in many cases long after) These include Khaki Green G3 and Dark Green G4 (later Dark Tarmac G4) - all a bit confusing! Mike Starmer wrote a useful, if, in places confusing, book on the subject for modellers and he includes smalll swatches.

Service Brown really means the, usually gloss, brown used for painting ammo boxes and the like.

[fv1609]

There are definitive samples in the Library at Bovington Tank Museum

War Emergency British Standard 987C : 1942
Amended Dec 1944 & July 1945
CAMOUFLAGE COLOURS
Sep 1942

The library reference is 623.77 (41) Camouflage /23

PS I forgot to mention that the front cover of the publication is stamped "Farrow & Ball Ltd" with a Ferndown phone number. I didn't imagine they would still be around, but yes and still supplying paint. They even have an archive section but alas no Olive Drab!

https://www.farrow-ball.com/paint/archive-collection

[10FM68]

I think they have been bought out by one of the major paint companies now - probably Dulux, but Farrow & Ball have been the 'go to' for house paints for Cotswolds dwellers for a generation, now - all the muddy green windows and doors?  Yep, expensive F&B paints!  You need to catch up on your subscription to "Country Living", Clive!  Seriously, though, I expect F&B were one of the many manufacturers of Paint PFU during WWII!  What is of interest, to me, anyway, is the frequency with which ACIs were amended updating regulations on paint.  But, because they were always accompanied by exhortations to carry on using the old paint 'until stocks were exhausted' and repainting only if necessary, it is entirely conceivable that some vehicles made it all through WWII never having been repainted at all and still in either pre-war DBG or early war Khaki Green G3 livery - it would be nice to see what colour those Bedford MWs with aeroscreens photographer post-1950 had been in! Can't tell with B&W photographs, though sadly, as even contrast is of little help as photographers used filters deliberately to emphasise contrast.

[Kevin Wells]

Thanks for all the info

would you have any information on the bikes deployment based on the details below

Contract S6680-26

Engine no 68961

Frame no TL47583

TEC. 6. 44

[Ron]

is it me or is there a mix up with your numbers TL47583 is from contract S5340 and I calculate your census number as C5568083 (same contract as mine)

 

Your engine number seems to fall after the WD sequence of numbers. Can you post pictures of the numbers and any acceptance stampings on the crank case?

Edited February 3 by Ron

[Kevin Wells]

ex India

[Ron]

Something odd there! the frame numbers for contract S6680 are Tl 53418 - 58617  and Engines 63418 - 68617 (5200 bikes) 

The original order was for 8000 bike but reduced to 5200 as the war was about over by then. There might well have been extra bikes stamped up like your engine. 

I'd really want to polish the frame number up and study it with a magnifying glass. Is the chassis/frame number stamped on the contract plate?  Ron

 

Ron 

[Kevin Wells]

I’ll get a chance to when I repaint the bike and will let you know

 

with the luck I’m having its probably a yammykusisaki and not a Triumph !

[rewdco]

Engine number 68961 (or 68981, difficult to see). As Ron said, contract S/6680 was supposed to be a contract for 8.000 bikes (frame numbers 53418 - 61417 and "matching" engine numbers 63418 - 71417). But the war was "over" when only 5200 bikes had been built, the rest of the contract (frame numbers 58618 - 61417 and "matching" engine numbers 68618 - 71417) was cancelled. This cancellation happened to other motorcycle manufacturers as well. I'm not a Triumph specialist, so I would like to compare with the situation at Royal Enfields. They were building the 5.000 WD/COs for contract S/3357, but for the same reason, after having made 1.500 of the 5.000 bikes, the contract was cancelled. At that time Enfield still had enough parts in stock to build most of the remaining 3.500 bikes! And that's what they did, they made a batch of 2.834 "civilianised" "post war Model CO" motor cycles, which were all sold on the export market. The home market had to make do with refurbished ex WD bikes. This was the "export or die" period...

Now... Could Triumph have done something similar I wonder? I guess that when the contract was suddenly cancelled, they also must have had a considerable stock of parts. Did they put them together and sell them on the export market as well? This could explain why your bike turned up in India. Just a thought...

The frame number is a mystery to me...

[T8Hants]

On 2/3/2024 at 7:11 PM, rewdco said:

Engine number 68961 (or 68981, difficult to see). As Ron said, contract S/6680 was supposed to be a contract for 8.000 bikes (frame numbers 53418 - 61417 and "matching" engine numbers 63418 - 71417). But the war was "over" when only 5200 bikes had been built, the rest of the contract (frame numbers 58618 - 61417 and "matching" engine numbers 68618 - 71417) was cancelled. This cancellation happened to other motorcycle manufacturers as well. I'm not a Triumph specialist, so I would like to compare with the situation at Royal Enfields. They were building the 5.000 WD/COs for contract S/3357, but for the same reason, after having made 1.500 of the 5.000 bikes, the contract was cancelled. At that time Enfield still had enough parts in stock to build most of the remaining 3.500 bikes! And that's what they did, they made a batch of 2.834 "civilianised" "post war Model CO" motor cycles, which were all sold on the export market. The home market had to make do with refurbished ex WD bikes. This was the "export or die" period...

Now... Could Triumph have done something similar I wonder? I guess that when the contract was suddenly cancelled, they also must have had a considerable stock of parts. Did they put them together and sell them on the export market as well? This could explain why your bike turned up in India. Just a thought...

The frame number is a mystery to me...

I have just found this post, My Triumph 3HW, is also from the last WD contract and is TL 54192 Engine 64192, made Feb 1945.  My Triumph was not shipped off to India, nor was it ever issued.  It has been looked at by those with more knowledge then I and has several features that would indicate it was taken back into Triumph sprayed black, reappeared on the civilian market late 1946, bought from an Isle of Wight dealer, used for 9 months in 1947 and then put away till the late 80's with a total of 5009miles on the clock.  So I believe  Triumph did exactly the same thing as Royal Enfield.

[Ron]

I'm sure that Triumph would have returned unissued  brand new WD bikes to the factory for a civilian make over. But I've never heard that they restored old used examples as did RE??  Ron

[T8Hants]

Several bikes made after mine have turned up in India, presumably shipped off for the far eastern theatre, so I have often wondered why mine didn't go as well.