Op Mudlark - FV437 Pathfinder, FV432, FMC M113-1/2 (Lynx) , M551 Sheridan

[Tarland]

Thought this was worth posting in the Tracked Vehicles section

Credit to @Mark Ellis as he's posted the IWM link in relation to mobility trials with the Stalwart. Op Mudlark was a series of trials with UK and US vehicles in Thailand in 1966

The full film is at https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060035249

Worth a look

- you can see why the Aussies selected the M113 over FV432 for their APC requirement

- FV437 Pathfinder footage - the FV430 series answer to the FV180 Combat engineer tractor

- The FMC 113-1/2 or Lynx looked pretty capable so no wonder the US army didn't select it. They got the GM M114 instead and that was another story of inept/suspect procurement....

If anyone has more info on the FV437 it would be worth posting. Not much about it online. I think the prototype is in the RE Museum Chatham based on one grainy photo from Instagram.

 

[Mark Ellis]

13 minutes ago, Tarland said:

Thought this was worth posting in the Tracked Vehicles section

Credit to @Mark Ellis as he's posted the IWM link in relation to mobility trials with the Stalwart. Op Mudlark was a series of trials with UK and US vehicles in Thailand in 1966

The full film is at https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060035249

Worth a look

- you can see why the Aussies selected the M113 over FV432 for their APC requirement

- FV437 Pathfinder footage - the FV430 series answer to the FV180 Combat engineer tractor

- The FMC 113-1/2 or Lynx looked pretty capable so no wonder the US army didn't select it. They got the GM M114 instead and that was another story of inept/suspect procurement....

If anyone has more info on the FV437 it would be worth posting. Not much about it online. I think the prototype is in the RE Museum Chatham based on one grainy photo from Instagram.

 

@Tarland, the 437 is indeed sat at the RE museum, looking in a very sorry state with a Ranger Anti personnel mine dispenser sat on top of it.

It was put up against the CET as the pathfinder vehicle, but with the CET having a big bucket on the front of it - it was decided that the CET was far superior for moving earth banks at the river edge. So the 437 was dropped.

I'd be interested to know what marine propulsion units are in it if anyone finds out.

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Mark Ellis

[Tarland]

Mark, Looking at the Chatham photos and the film stills I would say the outlets have been changed - square to round.

I'm presuming the power pack must have been moved to the crew compartment - the trunking extension looks to be where the circular crew hatch would normally be. I assume that this is protecting the pack air intakes and radiators . Exhaust arrangement is completely different from the regular FV430 series.

[Mark Ellis]

35 minutes ago, Tarland said:

Mark, Looking at the Chatham photos and the film stills I would say the outlets have been changed - square to round.

I'm presuming the power pack must have been moved to the crew compartment - the trunking extension looks to be where the circular crew hatch would normally be. I assume that this is protecting the pack air intakes and radiators . Exhaust arrangement is completely different from the regular FV430 series.

There's a number of Prototype vehicles that have been given to these "Civilian" military museums, and volunteers have caused more harm than good. 

The Stalwart went through 3 changes before they settled on the production marine propulsion design. I'd wondered if the round bits were inside the rectangular outlets. 
I'll see if someone can pop over and get some close up photos of the vehicle.

Perhaps @wally dugan has something on the development of the FV437.

I'd presumed that the rectangular box around the top was part of a shallow crew area. The winch comes out the front right at the bottom, so not sure where the winch is housed, but the REME 432 had a winch in the middle of the personnel area

 

Stalwart PV2, with the outlet on the side of the hull

 

Prototype Revised Water deflector board trial vehicle - 02SP43 at Beverly

 

02SP43 at Aldershot museum, after a volunteer apparently removed "the wrong" splashboard

[Mark Ellis]

1 hour ago, Tarland said:

Mark, Looking at the Chatham photos and the film stills I would say the outlets have been changed - square to round.

I'm presuming the power pack must have been moved to the crew compartment - the trunking extension looks to be where the circular crew hatch would normally be. I assume that this is protecting the pack air intakes and radiators . Exhaust arrangement is completely different from the regular FV430 series.

Of course, there may have been more than one prototype FV437 - which means it would be different anyway

[Tarland]

Mark,

Agreed - there could be more than one prototype.

The square hydro - jets in the film stills definitely look like Dowty units with the "clam shell" doors for directing the water.

The RE museum vehicle has nozzle outlets which are much more like the unit on a jet ski. I think these would have had to had larger protective boxes. The rear of the RE vehicle looks very bare (its missing a buoyancy unit where the rear door would have been) and theres no evidence of attachment points.

A quick search on FV437 on the IWM web page lists another film of the amphibious trials of the FV437 and Scorpion at Instow - unfortunately its just the catalogue entry and no film has been digitised.....

[Mark Ellis]

41 minutes ago, Tarland said:

Mark,

Agreed - there could be more than one prototype.

The square hydro - jets in the film stills definitely look like Dowty units with the "clam shell" doors for directing the water.

The RE museum vehicle has nozzle outlets which are much more like the unit on a jet ski. I think these would have had to had larger protective boxes. The rear of the RE vehicle looks very bare (its missing a buoyancy unit where the rear door would have been) and theres no evidence of attachment points.

A quick search on FV437 on the IWM web page lists another film of the amphibious trials of the FV437 and Scorpion at Instow - unfortunately its just the catalogue entry and no film has been digitised.....

The RE museum doesn't open again until 7th January, and from my experience they won't be very helpful - but I will try.

I've asked on my old regiment if anyone can nip along and grab some photos, as I know some of the lads still live around the area.

https://www.re-museum.co.uk/visit-us/

Some years ago I gave IWM a list of Stalwart and Sapper related films that they hold on their catalogue - that really need digitising. Had an email back about how the film has to be converted first at x thousand pound before being digitised. Was amazed when they did Mudlark.
British Film Industry (BFI) appear to also have some of the same films in their archive, also still on film. A lot of training films that SKC / SSVC made were all passed to BFI, which will probably never see the light of day.

[andym]

9 hours ago, Mark Ellis said:

A lot of training films that SKC / SSVC made were all passed to BFI, which will probably never see the light of day.

I know, I've been hunting for Abbot training films. 😞

Andy

[wally dugan]

I started to look and found mention of FV401  FV 438 and FV 439 but will continue to search  only about a eighth of the way through

[wally dugan]

It appears there were two prototypes P1/ 6937 and P2 /7145 these are there establishment numbers and  did not receive ERM numbers The others had numbers 06 EB 01 06 EB 02  06 EB 03 06 EB 04  and establishment numbers in order

6968/7009/7016/7026  I NEED to look further it would help to know the ERM one at CHATHAM to help confirm the above

[Mark Ellis]

6 minutes ago, wally dugan said:

It appears there were two prototypes P1/ 6937 and P2 /7145 these are there establishment numbers and  did not receive ERM numbers The others had numbers 06 EB 01 06 EB 02  06 EB 03 06 EB 04  and establishment numbers in order

6968/7009/7016/7026  I NEED to look further it would help to know the ERM one at CHATHAM to help confirm the above

Many thanks for this, @wally dugan I'll ring the Museum on the 7th, and see what info I can extract.

I note that the one at the museum has 3 lifting eyes on each side - compared to the one in Thailand having 2 on the sides

[wally dugan]

just look at the video 06 EB 01 winches the the Stalwart out when stuck on the track

[Mark Ellis]

1 hour ago, wally dugan said:

just look at the video 06 EB 01 winches the the Stalwart out when stuck on the track

I had wondered if they had a second 437 there, as they have at least 2 432 and 3 Stalwarts. 07ER56, 57 and 58 were pretty fresh out of Coventry when this was filmed.

I'll drop BAE archives an email, and see if they have anything on the 437

He says that the engine is mounted centrally, so I guess it's right behind the commander.

 

[Tarland]

6 hours ago, andym said:

I know, I've been hunting for Abbot training films. 😞

Andy

National Lottery Heritage fund application......one of the categories

Anyone got experience of making an application???https://www.heritagefund.org.uk/print/pdf/node/110955

[wally dugan]

in 1997 l did on behalf of the museum of army transport

[Mark Ellis]

1 hour ago, Tarland said:

National Lottery Heritage fund application......one of the categories

Anyone got experience of making an application???https://www.heritagefund.org.uk/print/pdf/node/110955

 

I was in the Army cadets when I was a kid. The local recruitment sergeant used to bring films up for us to watch. One night he showed us a film about back line support :- RCT, ACC, REME, etc. On the film was a Stalwart towing a Centurion on a gravel track. I'd love to find that clip again.

 

FYI @Tarland from 2022

[ploughman]

7 hours ago, andym said:

I know, I've been hunting for Abbot training films. 😞

Andy

I have been looking for anything to do with ADR and I know there's at least 1 film from 1980 as I was in it at Bruggen.

[Mark Ellis]

I forgot about this one. 
About the FV437 from 13 minutes in 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060035228

 

They never consider issuing wheel scotches with the Stalwart.

In this video below, the Mk 1 has sunk down in soft soil. Using two snatch blocks, the mark 2 winches it out. But the mark 2 has been anchored using Heras fencing feet between the second and third wheel 

 

 

 

[wally dugan]

JUST watched WATER OBSTACLE the one with W2 is 06 EB 02 06 EB 01 was clearly shown THOSE displaying  DA series ERM should be able to find

[10FM68]

What a fascinating film - interesting to see the FV421 being put through its paces as well as a Saladin, Ferret Mk4 etc.  Not much freeboard left on the snorkel/conning tower of the wading Centurion, though!  Interestingly, whereas in the film of the Thailand trials the FV432 always bogged left-wing-down, they floated pretty level.  I wonder why the RTR officer was armed - the others didn't appear to be - seems odd for a trial such as this - on the R Weser in Germany, I presume.  (I was watching with the sound off so it may actually have answered that last point!)

[Mark Ellis]

1 hour ago, wally dugan said:

JUST watched WATER OBSTACLE the one with W2 is 06 EB 02 06 EB 01 was clearly shown THOSE displaying  DA series ERM should be able to find

On MERLIN, these are the only 06EB, suggesting that the FV437 had all been cast by 1st January 1984

 

[Mark Ellis]

Just as a side note -

Stalwart 23EK50 (with the plain corrugated sides) is chassis number PV10. It spent a couple of years as the Diver's support vehicle with REME at Instow. Seen here in The Fleet Lagoon whilst a Chieftain tracks across from Chesil beach to  Wyke Regis Bridging camp.

I'm presuming that the bubbles are from the back of the Chieftain

 

[Mark Ellis]

The exhaust on the FV437 comes out in the rear right corner, with the silencer being a flat box across the back of the roof

[wally dugan]

After a bit more digging l would like to add the following P1 was number W4 and numbered 06 EB 04 and was transferred to SEME  on the 27/7/68 P2 was number W3 and  renumbered  06 EB 03 and transferred to RMSC  SHRIVENAM on the 8/9/69  W2 06 EB 02 was first sent to the RAC CENTRE BOVINGTON on the 6/4/67 and transferred to REME APPRENTICE SCHOOL ARBORFIELD on the 3/12 71 last         06 EB 01 was sent to 10  AVD date not published  It would appear that more FV 421 were built  than FV 437 There is a lot more to the story of the FV 400 series than you may first think and it began as early as 1950

[fv1609]