Use of a Lightweight Land Rover in the Royal Artillery?

[LarryH57]

As members may remember I have a 1980 GS Lwt that was fitted with a Dexion racking to hold a  Clansman 351 or 352, connected to a TUAAM on the offside (UK drivers side) and plenty of clips to show the routing of the cabling. The Lwt was used by the 4th Field Regt Royal Artillery and 7th Para RHA, both equipped with the 105mm L118 Light Guns towed by 1 Ton, Land Rover 101s.

The units had LWB Series III Land Rovers in support such as FFRs and perhaps a few LWB GS types for REME and Cooks, so who would use a GS Lwt adapted to have a single Clansman 351 or 352?

Battery Commanders and Officers didn't like an adapted GS Lwt as it wasnt an FFR and even those didn't have much room for their kit. So who might settle for a 'second best' option, who just needed to be contactable on the Radio Net,  but doesn't need a multiple channels? A roving Senior NCO and driver or perhaps the Padre and his driver? Anyone else?   

By the way I am ignoring the use of it by the Paras as a Lwt Recce Vehicle as I have no evidence of such use in the Para RHA.

Edited September 19, 2023 by LarryH57

[Mark Ellis]

The Honourable Artillery Company had shiny Lightweights for towing the guns.

But with the Army, sometimes it's a question of what RAOC had rather than what you expected. We were issued a Right hand drive Series 3 Land Rover in Germany, to replace a dead 2A Left hand drive

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Mark Ellis

[LarryH57]

Of course the HAC was a bit different from the 7th Para Royal Horse Artillery,  with 25 pdrs instead of the 105mm Light Gun,and I bet they never went off road in the very shiny Lwts.

[Richard Farrant]

5 hours ago, Mark Ellis said:

The Honourable Artillery Company had shiny Lightweights for towing the guns.

But with the Army, sometimes it's a question of what RAOC had rather than what you expected. We were issued a Right hand drive Series 3 Land Rover in Germany, to replace a dead 2A Left hand drive

 

 

A blast from the past here, I was involved in the preparation of these 5 Lightweights, the arrived at the REME Workshops as really scruffy vehicles from a Royal Green Jackets unit as I recall. A lot of work went in to bringing them up to Ceremonial standard.

[10FM68]

5 hours ago, LarryH57 said:

Of course the HAC was a bit different from the 7th Para Royal Horse Artillery,  with 25 pdrs instead of the 105mm Light Gun,and I bet they never went off road in the very shiny Lwts.

I'm not entirely sure it is fair to compare the HAC and 7 Para RHA by referencing the former's ceremonial gun troop.  The war role of the HAC was every bit as demanding as any regular army RA unit and, certainly, their vehicles would have gone off road!

 

On a less frivolous note, I have never quite understood the need for manpack fitments in Land Rovers and never came across  them during my service.  That is not to say they weren't used, but I just don't know why.  Every unit has a scale of issue of kit - its 'establishment'.  There is a Peace Establishment (PE) and a War establishment (WE) and these would allocate and authorise an entitlement to equipment based on the role and expected employment of the unit.  To that end, it would be worked out what communications were needed by that unit and radios and supporting equipment, including FFR vehicles, authorised for issue accordingly.  In consequence all the units I served in had FFR Rovers for all unit appointments who needed to be on the unit net and/or those of higher and subordinate commands.  The only reason I can think for employing a GS 12V Land Rover in a communications role is an officially recognised shortage of the proper 24V FFR Land Rovers such that a unit was significantly handicapped to the point that a replacement substitute was designed and issued, suggesting that it was an enduring problem rather than a temporary one.  I never heard of there being a shortage of 24V Land Rovers, but, then, there was no reason why I should have done unless I had been personally affected.  Perhaps someone else on here can shed some light.

Regrettably, that doesn't help identify for you a potential user, I'm afraid.

[LarryH57]

Incidentally my Lwt was with 4th Field Regt RA, at the time it was in the Falklands but I dont claim it was ever in the Islands, and was probably left in the UK.  Or was it, and would a GS Lwt, with a single 351 or 352 Clansman be sufficient for more than just keeping the Padre or Battery Sgt Major informed. Did they have a roving role to fulfil?

Also I agree that it is hard to justify a shortage of LWB FFRs, as the TA were not short of them at this time.

Edited September 19, 2023 by LarryH57

[ruxy]

I have several different Clansman User Manuals , out of dozens I suppose they were semi purchased blind.

Note  ,  QUOTE  -  User handbook for Clansman radio installations in Trucks,1/2 and 3/4 ton,FFR snd GS Rover

You take a port/Starboard Dexion kit  ,  Series 3 or slightly different Defender kit does it , best avoid ancient S2A kits as differing parts. 

You know when a LWT has been fitted as the brackets are each bolted  4 bolts to the upper body side (these anchor the bottom of the diagonal stays.  These brackets to properly fit to a LWT - you reverse them  convenient.  Most often at demob these brackets are left in situ.  but if you see 4 qty. holes you know has been fitted.

Now notice Trucks &  1/2  , at one time I was of the opinion this indicated a 88"  CL  ,  however the conversion to "FFR"  (12 volt)  was not uncommon.

See also the MJC book  -  page 186   EMER  Q  027   Mod Nos  62 + 65     (June 78 (No.2)  ,   my position - as I don't know any more  =   'sit-on-fence'  ,  it seems there is good official documentary evidence .     Many show vehicles have private owner DIY install - often a total shambles , it has a Manpack cradle bolted on  (IIRC - I have 3 or 4 types).  In service - I suppose they could mout the extra battery /  charger unit , so I suppose for any passenger/driver who needed a neat instalation (ISTR it does qualify for a wing-top TUAAM) 4 section antenna with penant ,,

https://www.greenmachinesurplus.com/user-handbook-for-clansman-into-land-roverprc320prc3512vrc353z61590pt10supp-28-3778-p.asp

[fv1609]

It seems a lot of fuss to take 1/2 man hour to just drill a single 12mm hole in the LH wheel arch to allow a man pack radio to be earthed.

Reason for modification - Code 2 - to improve operational performance.

Stores, tools & equipment - Nil

But there are nearly 2.5 pages of instructions in AESP 2320-D-100-811 Mod Instr No.20

Applied to AVCs 1620-0778 & 1620-5778 ie GS (no change of code needed after this mod!)

Mods to fit Clansman items applied to FFRs 

[LarryH57]

As Clive and Ruxy have pointed out my Lwt has those brackets fitted on the side of the rear tub, with four bolts each side, which I don't often see at MV shows. I was sent an 'exploded diagram' of the bracket and how the diagonal support for the dexion racking bolted on to the top. It was there when the Lwt was cast. So for me the question is why did the Army and RA in particular convert a 12 V GS to have a Clansman, when there was never a shortage of FFRs? 

Whom ever it was used for, the Lwt needed to be contactable but didn't need to work the Net on several Frequencies like an FFR office set up. There was no Radio shelf in this set up. 

In the 1980s Army that I remember, the set up in my Lwt just reminds me of a vehicle good enough for a roving NCO to visit lonely positions perhaps with some tea and a bit of grub on a cold night but not roomy enough for an Officer, unless a GS Lwt was sufficient for a Padre, if they had one in RA Regiments?

Edited September 20, 2023 by LarryH57

[10FM68]

14 hours ago, ruxy said:

I have several different Clansman User Manuals , out of dozens I suppose they were semi purchased blind.

Note  ,  QUOTE  -  User handbook for Clansman radio installations in Trucks,1/2 and 3/4 ton,FFR snd GS Rover

You take a port/Starboard Dexion kit  ,  Series 3 or slightly different Defender kit does it , best avoid ancient S2A kits as differing parts. 

You know when a LWT has been fitted as the brackets are each bolted  4 bolts to the upper body side (these anchor the bottom of the diagonal stays.  These brackets to properly fit to a LWT - you reverse them  convenient.  Most often at demob these brackets are left in situ.  but if you see 4 qty. holes you know has been fitted.

Now notice Trucks &  1/2  , at one time I was of the opinion this indicated a 88"  CL  ,  however the conversion to "FFR"  (12 volt)  was not uncommon.

See also the MJC book  -  page 186   EMER  Q  027   Mod Nos  62 + 65     (June 78 (No.2)  ,   my position - as I don't know any more  =   'sit-on-fence'  ,  it seems there is good official documentary evidence .     Many show vehicles have private owner DIY install - often a total shambles , it has a Manpack cradle bolted on  (IIRC - I have 3 or 4 types).  In service - I suppose they could mout the extra battery /  charger unit , so I suppose for any passenger/driver who needed a neat instalation (ISTR it does qualify for a wing-top TUAAM) 4 section antenna with penant ,,

https://www.greenmachinesurplus.com/user-handbook-for-clansman-into-land-roverprc320prc3512vrc353z61590pt10supp-28-3778-p.asp

I don't think anyone is denying that there was an official modification.  The question is why and for whom.

[LarryH57]

Yes, the question is why and for whom.

Plus a photo of the bracket to support the Dexion for a Clansman, that the clips in the Lwt suggests was mounted behind the driver, who I guess hadf to drive and listen out on the net for radio comms, that his 'ever so important passenger' didn't 

[10FM68]

9 hours ago, LarryH57 said:

 So for me the question is why did the Army and RA in particular convert a 12 V GS to have a Clansman, when there was never a shortage of FFRs? 

Whom ever it was used for, the Lwt needed to be contactable but didn't need to work the Net on several Frequencies like an FFR office set up. There was no Radio shelf in this set up. 

In the 1980s Army that I remember, the set up in my Lwt just reminds me of a vehicle good enough for a roving NCO to visit lonely positions perhaps with some tea and a bit of grub on a cold night but not roomy enough for an Officer, unless a GS Lwt was sufficient for a Padre, if they had one in RA Regiments?

This is the question - why!  I'm not convinced of the case of the 'roving NCO'.  There has to be a strong enough reason for the Army to respond to the need officially and a casual requirement wouldn't make the cut, I would have thought.  The only explanation I can think of is that there was a shortage, perceived shortage or expected shortage of FFRs.  Perhaps the sudden increase in the number of available Land Rovers following collapsed export orders mitigated the situation and the problem never arose but the solution did.

But, please don't think SWB Land Rovers weren't used by officers or that they would necessarily get to choose.  Some might (commanding officers of  regiments or battalions, perhaps), but if a LWB Land Rover was allocated to someone it would be because there was a need, not simply a matter of preference.  In the 70s an RE troop commander would have had an SWB Land Rover while the  staff sergeant 2ic a more comfortable LWB.  The reason was simple: the troop commander's task was primarily recce and command not lugging stuff around while the staff sergeant would be using his vehicle for carrying stores equipment, POL, rations  other people and all the rest of it.  Meanwhile the recce sergeant had a ferret and a rubber dinghy!  All three vehicles were FFR with a C42 and a B47 the dinghy, however, lacked radios of any sort!

I know for a fact that the GOC of 3 Armd Div at this time used an FFR Lightweight as his rover - I saw it myself and observed the discomfort of there being three people in the vehicle: the general, a driver, and an ADC.  Perhaps, at times, there were four if he was accompanied by a radio op!

[ruxy]

At one time I considered the LWT  'Unitary Radio Kit' was not fitted to the FFR's when they left Solihull and that they were fitted where shedded  - not so they were.  Originally in case of Rover 1 and early S3 , the FFR's were intended to be released for GS duties by use of the URS in the outside  'ground role' .  The early editions of the  LWT User Handbook  - doesn't give good info on the URS at all , such as the April '79 and march '80 issues do.  The four NATO tank starting batteries would keep you on air a while if the truck did not return to re-charge with extension cable , Larkspur days - you could also use a Onan genny , Clansman days were more Hopkins genny  (Kubota engine) .  Probably when the LWT was away from the URS tent a Manpack was thrown in the tub to maintain comms.   Over several recent years when Clansman stuff was disposed of (£ asking seems now creeping up) , hundreds if not thousands of Manpack radio were dumped on the market.  When more powerful engined helicopters were available that could lift a LWT without strip-down ,  then and only then was the possibility of fitting 109" Dexion racking to a LWT.  For anybody wishing to do a tidy job on a show vehicle  - then a "Fake-up"  of URS can be done by lining up a pair of antenna mount 'sliders' to the racking.   When in service any sqaddie with a need of a Manpack if he wished to have the original in-service Fake-up , all he needed was a B&D drill and DIY with a readily available Dexion kit , he did not need a Royal Signals ED bloke . However the LWT that I have seen have all had the body-side bracket fitted the (correct) wrong way - a case of 'monkey see , monkey do  ?

[LarryH57]

Lets forget the Lwt FFRs for the moment. I know Officers used them, under sufferance, but as far as I can remember I never saw a Royal Artillery Battery Commander with a GS Lwt  with a single /sole Clansman radio in them for comms. So it must have been for a less important role / rank.

[10FM68]

2 hours ago, LarryH57 said:

Lets forget the Lwt FFRs for the moment. I know Officers used them, under sufferance, but as far as I can remember I never saw a Royal Artillery Battery Commander with a GS Lwt  with a single /sole Clansman radio in them for comms. So it must have been for a less important role / rank.

I agree, I cannot imagine any BC using a GS with a manpack.  RA communications were vital and, of course, very reliable (they had to be).  You will know that, as far as the rest of the Army was concerned, the Gunners were more likely to be able to 'get through' on their radios than R Signals (as exemplified by the Paras at Arnhem, I think).  It could be to do with the fact that the Gunners were always allocated different sets of frequencies from the rest of the Army - hence different radios - C45/B48 v C42/B47 if memory serves.  No, a BC would have needed two sets anyway: to the guns and back to the brigade or battle group he was supporting.  Role rather than rank, though as, generally, rank meant command and command meant entitlement to comms.  There must be an ex-Gunner on this forum who could expand on this.  I can't help - I was the wrong side of the blanket - a sapper!

[ruxy]

What radio would a FOO use  ?

[LarryH57]

A Forward Observation Officer is another good possibility, so I can now add all the parifinalia, for such a role, such as stripped down body, no tilt, with roll bar, twin GPMG, and every bit of kit known to a soldier, lashed to the outside. 

If a FOO was 'up the front' directing fire for the troops the RA was supporting, would it be all camo'd up, otherwise it might be a target for enemy gunners?

Interestingly I have remembered that the tilt was painted too with matt black paint, when it was cast which was un- authoried but this could have been done by anyone, not just a FOO.

Edited September 21, 2023 by LarryH57

[LarryH57]

Has anyone got info on the set up and equipment used by a FOO?

[ruxy]

Book -  Footsloggers  :  An Infantry Battalion at War  1939-45  by  Peter Hart  (2023)

Page  -  284  (WW2)  Italy - QUOTE   -  providing the communications which were absolutely essential.  There wee three signallers usually, in the company. You had to carry the 18 set, which was quite heavy, 30 to 40 lbs.  You had to have the aerial out, which stuck up about 5 feet, and walking along through vineyards with an aerialrealy was quite impossible at times !  We had to carry two spare batteries, which were big thick things like bricks.  etc. etc.   Mention of Foo on other pages , too many to flick through - IIRC always of Captain rank.   

From what I understand 1970's 80's 90's   - very similar  , a Land Rover was used then on foot using a Larkspur or Clansman manpack , operations basically the same.

[ruxy]

https://www.emlra.org/index.php/library/vehicles-2/31-elmra-articles-land-rovers-gs-cl-ffr  peruse  here  -  not LWT or 88"CL  , just  109" CL  but reference to mounting of candlestick side stalk for manpack on  109" CL's

 

[AlienFTM]

Might I suggest an echelon vehicle. Holds hands up, I was never familiar with the echelons, A and B. To me, they were Eskimo Ness, the SQMS and they brought stuff up to us while we sat in treeline OPs watching for 3 Shock Army. My understanding is that the A Echelon brought ammunition forward, split into two. A1 and A2. A1 went forward to troops to deliver ammo. A2 went back down the MSR to fetch ammo. Whereas B echelon brought food and everything else forward. But I could be wrong.

Our reconnaissance B Squadron B Echelon, callsign 29G under the pre-1982 callsign system, cabbied around alles über the Platz in a lightweight Land Rover and only ever listened in the the Combat Team (Squadron) command net.

29F was the SQMS's callsign. I seem to recall he ran the A1 echelon to fetch us our ammo.

Since I never came across the A2 echelon, maybe it was an HQ Squadron asset. Apart from Command Troop (where I spent three years), in the field HQ Squadron just comprised a single command vehicle (a 1-tonne LR) and lots of trucks.

Edit. 29D was the SQMS. 29F was the squadron ambulance.

Edited September 27, 2023 by AlienFTM

[ruxy]

My 'theory'  - is that as the Army was always short of 88" CL  (they sidn't spread much away from RMP & driver training)  AND the fact that the Army received unexpected hundreds and hundreds of gratis LWT  ,  for example most of the   1980 dated  --HG--  Contracts .  These were intended for Iran along with M.B. tanks  (£ payment matters for goods not received only resolved this year) .Then all of the LWT were shedded around the TAVR garages as well as regular units receiving many - I suspect that many of the se LWT specialist vehicles were in fact used as CL's - often such as Staff Sgt's receiving their own car - so sfa $  CB was fitted and if a Dexion kit could be liberated - all the better.

[LarryH57]

But surely Ruxy, if my Lwt was a proper Military Vehicle and the history says it was with the Royal Artillery, surely any comments concerning shortages of Land Rover CL's is not relevant (without being rude)