Italian 'elastico' Triumph 3HW, 1942

[Adrian Dwyer]

Morning Ron and thanks for all of the above.  I have seen your 3HW in other posts: cracking bike.  (As a matter of interest, have you kept the voltage regulator, or gone solid state?)  I have seen the tank-mounted air filter before but never the, a'hem, protector.  An invaluable addition for the energetic rider.

The more I see of the Gruppo Velux (looks a very snug fit in your image) the more I want one!  I am guessing the valve arrangement may have a shorter working life that the iron head and make journeys to the pub a lot quicker - but what a looker.

Many thanks.

A

[Ron]

Morning Adrian.

Now I look at the pictures in Jan's French artical. I see they show the M20 and also the Norton 16H. They were obviously converting bikes that were left over from the war. 

A friend of mine has a WW2 Ariel W/NG with swinging arm conversion. I need to take a closer look at it to see if it's a British or other conversion.  Ron

[Adrian Dwyer]

22 minutes ago, Ron said:

Morning Adrian.

Now I look at the pictures in Jan's French artical. I see they show the M20 and also the Norton 16H. They were obviously converting bikes that were left over from the war. 

A friend of mine has a WW2 Ariel W/NG with swinging arm conversion. I need to take a closer look at it to see if it's a British or other conversion.  Ron

 

Thanks again Ron.  From my limited but expanding knowledge on this topic, the Italians went large on elastico conversion of WD bikes immediately after the end of hostilities, particularly, it would seem, the Matchless.  The two companies I know about are Arma and Stram.  I've seen Arma conversions and they are very nice; never seen a Stram.  I have also never seen a British elastico; but it seems unlikely the development would have passed unnoticed. Looking at the fantastic images supplied by rewdco, the French also had skin in this game. If there are any pictures of Brit-built elasticos out there, I would love to see them! (And I would be very keen to see the SA conversion on the Arial)

I am always taken by the very solid engineering evident on my 3HW and I do wonder if it was made from Arma parts (possibly a lunchtime project in the Arma workshop?).  

All the very best.

A

[rewdco]

I think it could be worth contacting the MotoCiclismo d'epoca editor. When I was working in Italy in the 1990's I always bought this high quality monthly. It used to have (still has?) lots of in-depth articles. Definitely worth a try!

Edited August 6, 2023 by rewdco

[Adrian Dwyer]

2 hours ago, rewdco said:

I think it could be worth contacting the MotoCiclismo d'epoca editor. When I was working in Italy in the 1990's I always bought this high quality monthly. It used to have (still has?) lots of in-depth articles. Definitely worth a try!

That is a good call.  The wonders of google only takes you so far.  I suspect these bikes were considered second best by many: I think they are spectacular examples of making the most of what you've got to hand.  I would love to know how many ex-WD elasticos survived the Italian cull of 2010'ish.  I know of at least one . . .

Thanks again.

A

[rewdco]

I've been Googling a bit on the Italian internet, unfortunately I couldn't find anything on the Triumph conversions. But I did find these pictures of two different Matchlesses: 

And above all, I found a forum (https://rugginose.forumfree.it/?t=73637300 , you have to register in order to see anything) where somebody was asking information about this Matchless:

This is his late grandfather's bike that he would like to re-register, but it appears that he's got some problems with that. Some interesting quotes from this forum, with Google translation:

Mi ha spiegato che a fine anni 40,la mia e' immatricolata 1949,una ditta di Torino civilizzava queste moto militari,e la principale modifica era proprio rendere elasticizzate la parte posteriore,e per quanto riguarda l'asi ,non riusciro' ad avere la documentazione necessaria.

 

He explained to me that at the end of the 40s, mine was registered in 1949, a company in Turin civilized these military motorcycles, and the main modification was precisely to make the rear part elasticised, and as far as the ASI is concerned, I won't be able to have the necessary documentation.

And this:

Dopo il disastro della guerra, con le attrezzature semidistrutte e le moto ufficiali rocambolescamente ritrovate su un treno al confine con l'allora Jugoslavia, la Benelli si rimise in piedi proprio con queste modifiche sulle moto inglesi dei campi ARAR.
Nei campi ARAR si potevano acquistare per pochi soldi le moto dismesse dagli Alleati e alcune Aziende (come Benelli) acquistavano le moto, poi le rivendevano rimesse in ordine, con il retrotreno modificato con gli ammortizzatori e spesso una colorazione non militare.
L'officina Ancillotti di Firenze rivendeva le Harley Davidson WLA e così tantissime altre sparse in tutta Italia.
Le moto così trasformate sono perfettamente storiche, e mi sembra davvero strano che in ASI non lo comprendano.
Al tuo posto proverei con FMI, magari facendo due chiacchiere con un esaminatore.

 

After the disaster of the war, with the semi-destroyed equipment and the daringly found official motorbikes on a train on the border with what was then Yugoslavia, Benelli got back on its feet precisely with these modifications on the British motorbikes of the ARAR fields.

In the ARAR camps it was possible to buy motorcycles abandoned by the Allies for little money and some companies (such as Benelli) bought the motorcycles, then resold them in order, with the rear axle modified with shock absorbers and often a non-military color.

The Ancillotti workshop in Florence resold Harley Davidson WLAs and so many others scattered throughout Italy.

The motorcycles transformed in this way are perfectly historic, and it seems really strange to me that they don't understand this at ASI.

In your place I would try the FMI, perhaps having a chat with an examiner.

 

For your interest: all the derelict allied vehicles in Italy were lined up in the ARAR fields, and sold off, presumably in auctions:

 

[Adrian Dwyer]

12 hours ago, rewdco said:

I think it could be worth contacting the MotoCiclismo d'epoca editor. When I was working in Italy in the 1990's I always bought this high quality monthly. It used to have (still has?) lots of in-depth articles. Definitely worth a try!

I have dropped a line, as you suggest and await a response.  I love the new pictures you posted (and am now a big fan of google translate!).  I had not heard about the Benelli link and will do some digging.

It sounds like our Italian friend may have overshared. When mine was registered, DVLA were only concerned about engine number, frame number and an expert assessment of the date of original manufacture.

I too did a bit of googling last night and came up with the bike in the image: very red and very odd details (or lack thereof).

I'll keep you posted if I make progress.

A

[Adrian Dwyer]

Finally located the JAEGER marked km face from the clock.  Has anyone seen one of these before or has one fitted? (and does anyone know why it's red?)  I rather like the idea of the Elastico hitting solid '140'!

All the best.

A

[Ron]

This is the normal British version. The fixing nuts do have a metric thread though.  Ron

[rewdco]

I have seen French versions ("kilomètres", Jaeger was a French company...), but I've never seen an Italian one before ("chilometri ora"). It must have been black, before someone overpainted it with a translucent "rosso corsa" paint. Why...? Dunno...

Edited August 18, 2023 by rewdco

[Ron]

I guess they were made under licence by whoever wanted them around the World. Strange that we kept the metric threads to the fixing studs. But I have a feeling that the correct metric nuts might have had an imperial hex. .......Lex, Jan or Rik will correct me.

It's been my theory for a while that they used 0BA nuts which are exactly the same thread as M6. Ron

Edited August 18, 2023 by Ron

[Adrian Dwyer]

1 hour ago, rewdco said:

I have seen French versions ("kilomètres", Jaeger was a French company...), but I've never seen an Italian one before ("chilometri ora"). It must have been black, before someone overpainted it with a translucent "rosso corsa" paint. Why...? Dunno...

Morning rewdco.  It's red through and through - but getting a bit crispy with age.  The Jaeger logo and other markings were originally in white (judging by what's left) and were printed on.  I think it may have been 'liberated' from an Italian bike and cut to fit the Smith's clock 140 seems a bit optimistic for the 3HW.  I'll take a picture of the back face.

[Adrian Dwyer]

Image of back and front.  The difference in colour is due to my poor photographic technique and, I am guessing,  age and sun bleaching.

[Adrian Dwyer]

1 hour ago, Ron said:

This is the normal British version. The fixing nuts do have a metric thread though.  Ron

Morning Ron and thank you for the image.  No trip on mine (see earlier post).  Have you ever seen a red version in Km/h?  Matches the tank quite nicely but a bit too crispy to put back.  As I mentioned, it was wrapped in the truly ancient tool-roll.

[rewdco]

31 minutes ago, Adrian Dwyer said:

Image of back and front.  The difference in colour is due to my poor photographic technique and, I am guessing,  age and sun bleaching.

Mama mia! ❤️

[Adrian Dwyer]

10 minutes ago, rewdco said:

Mama mia! ❤️

Indeed!

[Adrian Dwyer]

More evidence of a misspent youth in 1940/50s Italy.  If you squint, the florid script discovered under the saddle (along with an ancient nest made by wasps) almost, almost certainly reads 'Giacomo Agostini' and not a mundane note to the saddle maker...

Question: Is the maker known to anyone? (just about to consult google)

[rewdco]

No idea... How does the saddle frame looks like? WD - British or Italian?

[Adrian Dwyer]

I am indebted to Richard, at Lacey's motorcycles in Suffolk, for his care and attention with this!

So, what are we thinking now?

[Ron]

It looks like it's been cut in the middle and at least one slot is missing. The slots are for bungee hooks, not mattress springs. Ron

[Adrian Dwyer]

17 minutes ago, Ron said:

It looks like it's been cut in the middle and at least one slot is missing. The slots are for bungee hooks, not mattress springs. Ron

Ah!

[Adrian Dwyer]

Ron - great picture, thank you.  Looking at the saddle frame, I see the weld but the nose seems very different to the WD in your image.  I was thinking mine may be Italian, given the manufacturer's plate (GM of Turin) on the cover?  There seems to be ancient evidence of springs and bungees.  As a matter of interest, are bungees specific to saddles readily available?

Thank you again.

Yours,

A

[Ron]

I can't tell right now if yours is Terry's or Lycettes. Some had 12 slots for 6 bungees and some had 14 slots for 7 bungees. 

But Jan has written everything you might want to know about WD saddles in this thread.  Ron

 

[Adrian Dwyer]

17 minutes ago, Ron said:

I can't tell right now if yours is Terry's or Lycettes. Some had 12 slots for 6 bungees and some had 14 slots for 7 bungees. 

But Jan has written everything you might want to know about WD saddles in this thread.  Ron

 

Ron - brilliant read.  Now, without deliberately setting two schools of thought against each other, did bungees replace springs, or did they run in parallel?  This is all new to me as the last Triumph I rode before the 3HW was a over 40-years ago (a 1973 Trident) and the saddle was foam!  I can see my saddle frame would have had bungees but I can see why someone would have fitted springs over bungees.  However, I'm not certain as to its origins: i.e., is it the original £HW saddle modified to make it slimmer or is it an Italian saddle modified to fit the modified frame? As a matter of interest, did 3HWs have bungees as standard?  (I will reread Jan's thread!)

Having said/asked all that, was the move to bungees a cost saving measure?  I am not certain I see a mechanical advantage - but stand ready to be educated!

Many thanks once again.

A

[Ron]

I think it was more an availabilty thing. For instance, my own 3HW is a late contract  1944. The parts list quotes " Saddle universal" either a Terry saddle with matress springs or a Lycett with elastics. Whatever can be drawm from the suppiers or stores at the time. Ron