Pattern 58 web gear assembly???

[Bilbo42]

OK, I got it now what? I think I have most of it together ok but I sure would appreciate it if someone could pass on to me a set of instructions (with pictures) as to the proper way to assemble this stuff! I have the belt, the suspenders, the front two ammo pouches, the rear two pouches that are sewn togerther and the sleeping roll cover. I am having a little trouble on the bottom of the rear pouches and the sleeping roll cover. I could not find anything on the net. Thanks, Bil

[sirhc]

Google it. I found an assembly diagram on the web when I bought mine.

[lightweight]

Bill, before you do anything - make sure that the metal loops on the back of the belt face DOWN. These are where you hang your poncho roll (or 'bum roll' - that being an English bum, not a US bum)

 

Hope these pictures help. First one shows rear of kidney pouches (the two sewn together).

 

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa64/lightweight0_3/100_0037.jpg[/img]

 

Note that my set has two waterbottle pouches, fitted between the kidney pouches and the ammo pouches - if you don't have them - ignore.

 

Next photo shows how to attach top of kidney pouch to suspenders (yolk)

 

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa64/lightweight0_3/100_0038.jpg[/img]

 

Last one - all assembled, bum roll attached

 

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa64/lightweight0_3/100_0039.jpg[/img]

 

Any other problems, let me know.

[AlienFTM]

If you have a respirator pouch, wear it on the LHS between the left ammo pouch and the kidney pouches just next to the ammo pouch. Makes it possible to get your respirator out and on in nine seconds. Wear your water bottle on the RHS to balance the webbing.

 

With everything in sequence, pack them all as close together as possible (whilst retaining symmetry, bearing in mind the different widths of respirator bag and water bottle pouch - see above). This allows you to get the ammo pounches as far round the side as you can get them, so that when you need to get down on your belly and put down fire, you aren't lying there with ammo pouches digging in yer belly and yer arrse up in the air. You have to be comfortable to shoot straight.

 

Infantry and REMFs tend to adjust the yoke straps short to lift the belt off the hips and avoid blisters when running. In the cavalry we wore them long to give us some freedom of movement. We didn't run into battle. We didn't carry our weapons into battle: our weapons carried us into battle.

[david052]

Generally the bum roll (nominally used for the poncho but in reality you somehow have to manage to get your NBC suit, inc overboots and 2 pairs of gloves in it) is carried on top of the kidney pouches, with just the 2 end clips going round your back and clipping onto the top loops of the ammo pouches. Ignore the other two clips and bungee it to the kidney pouches with 2 cammo bungies - no disco bungies!!! Stops it all bounching around when running. Remember to put black insulating tape around the ends of all the tabs so they don't slip out of the metal sliders. You can use the front straps on the yoke to lower the kit when patrolling, then pull it up tight when having to dash around.

[Bilbo42]

OK all that makes good sense. Question: when I got this stuff from Sportsmans Guide it came with two thin green straps with buckels that were just loose. What do they go to in relation to what kit I have (see above post)? Bil

[david052]

Utility straps for you to use as you feel fit. More stuff to carry round in the ned.

[ChrisPWRR]

The problem is with webbing is there is no right or wrong way... It is personal only when I was training I had to have it a certain way after you go to a platoon its up to you where you have it. 58 Patt webbing was used in different theatres of war NI you woudn't need kidney pouches in urban but in say South Armagh you would be using them. What are you reinacting?

[AlienFTM]

Utility straps for you to use as you feel fit. More stuff to carry round in the ned.

 

I used to attach a Gore-tex rainproof smock to either down strap on the back of the yoke using the Straps, Utility and putting the top loop through the entrenching tool buckle at the top so it was easily accesible like you often historicallt see blankets in an inverted U outside the webbing.

 

Modified because Gore-tex is not spelt kevlar

[Bilbo42]

I thought that I posted this last night-so it must be somewher out in space! Where do I ware the Pattern 58 holster for my Browning? I am right handed. Also, what ranks got to ware a sidearm? BTW, the reason I want to know all this stuff is that I have a Land Rover Lightweight that I hope to begin showing at military shows here in the southeastern US. I am in the process of kiting it out and wanted to do the same for myself. At the very least jacket, helmet, pants, boots and web gear. My rover was delivered to the 212th (Highland) Battery Royal Artillery (Volunteers) in 1974, so I want to portray the mid 1970-1980s. Any help would be great. Best regards, Bil

[PeterMacD]

in my 58 webbing days ( 1980's) it was rare for the Land Army to be issued pistols - they went to Northern Ireland - most officers were issued SMGs as they were required to direct the battle and not take part! ;-)

 

The Royal Military Police did wear them on occasions, but again, I seem to remember them carrying SMGs in the field.

[ArtistsRifles]

FWIW - we were issued with brownings in addition to all the other kit - but you couldn't realy describe my old lot as being a typical scenario.

I recall the brownings weren't too popular in the field as, when carrying anything other than the apache, it meant another load of ammo to be carted....

[AlienFTM]

I thought that I posted this last night-so it must be somewher out in space! Where do I ware the Pattern 58 holster for my Browning? I am right handed. Also, what ranks got to ware a sidearm? BTW, the reason I want to know all this stuff is that I have a Land Rover Lightweight that I hope to begin showing at military shows here in the southeastern US. I am in the process of kiting it out and wanted to do the same for myself. At the very least jacket, helmet, pants, boots and web gear. My rover was delivered to the 212th (Highland) Battery Royal Artillery (Volunteers) in 1974, so I want to portray the mid 1970-1980s. Any help would be great. Best regards, Bil

 

 

In 14 years I only ever carried a pistol on pistol shoots at Skill-At-Arms meetings, in which case the holster goes on the left-hand side for for a right-handed shooter.

 

If you have followed my advice above, the holster can go between the left-hand ammo pouch and the buckle. I never saw any rank below Major carry a pistol unless I have forgotten a Captain and Quartermaster in the field. You are unlikely to see a field officer far enough forward to need to eat dirt, but, having removed pistol from holster, it would be less uncomfortable for him to lie on his empty holster than for mere mortals to lie on loaded ammo pouches or respirator bags.

 

I have vague memories that officers of sufficient rank to carry a pistol would wear it in a holster on an otherwise bare belt, wearing full webbing (on another belt) over the top, so that weapon was always to hand even if webbing was not.

 

There are tales of QMs having wooden Browning replicas made so that they did not even need to sign out real 9mm, risk losing it on exercise, then have to clean it at EndEx.

[Bilbo42]

That is pretty good about the wooden Brownings. I can see that! Well, I have just become a Major. How is that for rising in the ranks! If any of you know, in an Artillery Battery, in the TA, would it be understandable for an officer, say a Major, to be riding in a FFR (fitted for radio) Land Rover Lightweight. Being a comm vehicle, it seems somewhat realistic. Any thoughts? And thanks for everything so far. See pic attached. Bil

[lightweight]

Nice Lightweight Bill. If you are rstoring it in the guise of an FFR you need some of these (see boxes on wings)....

 

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa64/lightweight0_3/000_0126.jpg[/img]

 

.....and a load of radio gubbins in the back!

[abn deuce]

Would the camo net over the tire be normal in service? does hide the tire nicely.

[Bilbo42]

Oh, I want the TUAAM boxes and the antenna mounts bad. Are yours Clansman or Larkspur? I have one of the little cable holder boxes mounted on the right wing but thats all. It would be great to get all the radio gear but there is no way I could ever afford it. Not over here. There is nothing for sale in the States as far a s British radio gear except manuals. About the closest i will ever come is i have a Canadian transceiver (handheld)-CRP-26. I think you call your version the A40 but that is just from memory. I do need a web bag for it, if you see one around (like the one in the pic).

I see that you have two different antenna mounts-is that for different radios? I see that EMLRA has the TUAAM protective boxes sold separately, that would help me as far as shipping and I could get the antenna mounts there but i want to see who else might have them too before i commit.

[sirhc]

The antenna bases are just different versions of the same thing. The one on the RHS is missing the tuner ring/spacer block. These wing boxes/antenna mounts are for Clansman series radios and would be found on Land Rovers from the late 70s / early 80s right up till this year.

[AlienFTM]

1. We usually had a real Battery Commander attached to our battlegroup HQ in BAOR. He tended to travel in a 3/4ton FFR LR. Sometimes we had a virtual BC attached.

 

In Combat Team FHQ we were supposed to have a Golf callsign somewhere between BC and FOO attached but he always seemed to be a virtual Golf callsign so I made it up when I needed a fire mission and FHQ always obliged with the right answers so we could have a nice chat while bringing virtual hell down upon our virtual target. I think if we ever had an attached Golf callsign at FHQ, he would likewise be in a 3/4 ton FFR.

 

2. The cam over the wheel looks good. What I did as Squadron Leader's driver was attach a roll of hessian above the windscreen and when stationary, unrolled it down over the wheel. (Ditto lights and other windows as I have described numerous times recently.) Then one cam net over the lot.

 

3. If you kit it out with Larkspur radio harness, the antenna boxes (containing Larkspur ATUs rather than clansman TUAAMs) are open on the rearward facing side because the Antenna Tuning Unit requires manual intervention when retuning the radio, unlike the clansman Tuning Unit Automatic Antenna Matching. Larkspur was a REAL operator's radio. ;o)

[Bilbo42]

A little recap and then questions: My Lightweight FFR Series III served with 212 (Highland) Battery RA (V) from its issue in 1974 until out of service in 1990s. In the RA (V) in say 1975, what would the uniform dress be in the field if you had been called up to go to some of the places that may have had engagements during say 1975-1986? Also, since i don't yet have the service record of the vehicle, would it possibly have been used in Northen Ireland? Sorry but being from the US, I just don't know these things? Being with the TA, would it just have been used in training manuevers. When our National Guard is called up, which they are often, as in Iraq now, their equipment goes with them. I know this last part is a little off topic, but you guys who were in are as likely to know as anyone!! Thanks, Bil

[AlienFTM]

A little recap and then questions: My Lightweight FFR Series III served with 212 (Highland) Battery RA (V) from its issue in 1974 until out of service in 1990s.

 

In the RA (V) in say 1975, what would the uniform dress be in the field if you had been called up to go to some of the places that may have had engagements during say 1975-1986?

 

RA(V) would almost certainly have worn full combats on exercise, though they would stand out in our (Recce) battlegroup because when not in overalls, we wore combat jacket and olive green lightweight trousers. I would not be surprised if gun crews wore coveralls, lightweight in the way armoured vehicle crews did. Combats were very expensive; lightweights ("green jeans") were cheap as chips, so wearing the latter in the field kept clothing budgets down. We only EVER wore combat trousers on guard. you would also need Boots, DMS and beret (navy blue) with RA cap badge. I'd be very surprised if RA did not wear a 58 pattern web belt over combats or overalls at all times because that's how the RA were (in Recce we didn't because it was something to catch on the vehicle while escaping in a hurry).

 

Khaki Flannel (KF) Shirt and Jersey Heavy Wool under the combat jacket. Be careful with the Woolly Pulley: in 1975 there would be no epauletts, which did not come in until a year or two later.

 

You could get away with a green beret and RA cap badge if the individual had served with the Royal Marines, done the courses and earned the right, in which case there would be badge implications, probably an RM dagger on the sleeve. Likewise a maroon beret and wings if the individual had served with the Parachute Regiment or an Airborne RA Regiment (which I seem to recall a few years later was 4 Field Regiment but I could be wrong). In 1975, I would not like to say that the new camouflage rank badges on green squares had come into service. Certainly my memory says that all NCOs wore blacked out standard chevrons. (I also saw rank badges inked out with navy blue Quink in Northern Ireland).

 

Also, since i don't yet have the service record of the vehicle, would it possibly have been used in Northern Ireland?

 

For me the short answer is an emphatic NO. In the mid-70s, although NI was a purely Infantry role (with all the support arms of course) and manning was severely stretched, the shortfall was entirely made up by putting Regular Royal Armoured Corps regiments into the NI Arms Plot. (Which is exactly how come my regiment was in NI from 74 to 76.)

 

During this period, the role of the Territorial Army and Volunteer Reserve (TAVR) was solely the massive reinforcement of BAOR in the event of 3 Shock Army coming over the IGB. The Regulars were only expected to hold for 48 hours until relieved by the TAVR; the decimated Regular Army would withdraw to the UK and start to train a new conscript army in the hope that the Commies did not get to the English Channel in three weeks. (We never expected them to take that long.) The only TA unit to serve in NI (AFAIK) was the Ulster Defence Regiment (an Infantry regiment). the largest regiment on the Army's OrBat comprising six battalions of 500 men (and women) whose sole purpose was the defence of their homeland.

 

Sorry but being from the US, I just don't know these things? Being with the TA, would it just have been used in training manuevers. When our National Guard is called up, which they are often, as in Iraq now, their equipment goes with them. I know this last part is a little off topic, but you guys who were in are as likely to know as anyone!! Thanks, Bil

 

 

Don't be sorry - blame your parents ;o) At that time the TA - as I touched on earlier at the time it was the TAVR - would deploy to BAOR for two weeks every autumn to exercise with the Armoured Division they would expect to fight alongside and participate in the annual divisional Field Training Exercise (FTX).

 

If you want to get a feel for the problems of shipping a TA regiment to BAOR from the UK, you could do worse than buy a copy of the recent Armoured Farmer - A Tankie's Tales by my friend Malcolm Cleverley, ISBN 1-84683-029-X (yes it's a plug I helped with the final edit) in which he describes how 3 Royal Tank Regiment deployed to BAOR from UKLF as part of a major exercise in the 1970s. It gave those of us on the IGB no confidence that we would be reinforced before we were overrun.

 

To give you an idea, 16th/5th Lancers were a sister Armoured Reconnaissance Regiment based in Wolfenbuettel, right on the IGB near Braunschweig around this time. Their combat lifetime was estimated at around 20 minutes from the Commies crossing the IGB. The general consensus was that they were there simply as a tripwire .

[PeterMacD]

Bill,

 

The BC would have been attached to a Battalion HQ during the period you have mentioned, as the Arty adviser to the CO. He would have travelled in the TAC (Tactical Headquarters) close to the front line. His FFR (full wheel base) would have been cammed up - that is black and green paint, cam nets and Hessian rolled up, long branches or cam poles - all tied up on the roof. It would have had a driver/operator - that is the BCs signaller who would dismount with him and carry the radio (he wasn't a Batman but the odd cuppa would have been expected! ;-) )

 

Your vehicle, however, a lightweight FFR, would be used by one of the FOOs (Forward Observation Officer - usually a SNCO or Lieutenant) who would be attached to a Company and provide indirect fire support. His vehicle would be cammed up the same way as described above.

[Bilbo42]

Wow! You guys know your stuff! OK, so as of now (today, this minute-may change tommorrow) I think I will portray my Lightweight's mission with BOAR. That seems it would have been its most interesting time. Since I have a range of service from 1974 to the 1990's, would the the 212 have possibily been deployed other than BOAR?

 

Thank you all for your suggestions about uniform and kit. As I mentioned earlier, I have the Pattern 58 web gear already. What pattern of combats would have been used , say until the Berlin wall fell (or were most promineent during that period)? waht abou a helmet, what pattern?

 

I think I will try to stick with Clansman protective boxes, because I ca

n put the empty box on the wing and still look good. I assume since the Larkspur is open to the rear, I would have to have an ATU in the box to look right. Anyone have a spare clansman protective box?

 

AlienFTM, Iknow what you mean by the LARKSPUR BEING AN OPERATOR'S RADIO. i HAVE SEVERAL wwii FIELD RADIOS AND THEY ARE REALLY A JOY TO WORK WITH. Sorry for the all caps but I am not going back to correct! BTW, I read your interview and it was really something. What is Dog? And i also shot at our National High Power Matches in 1982 and 83. Shot an M-14. Really a great weapon!

 

Lightweight, I don't know if I said it earlier, but GREAT VEHICLE! Thanks again to all of you. I eagerly await more good info. Your humble student ,Bil

[ArtistsRifles]

Clothing would have been 68 pattern DPM, DMS boots, Shirt KF, brown woolen puttees.

Helmet would likely have been the old "Turtle" patter

[AlienFTM]

AlienFTM, Iknow what you mean by the LARKSPUR BEING AN OPERATOR'S RADIO. i HAVE SEVERAL wwii FIELD RADIOS AND THEY ARE REALLY A JOY TO WORK WITH. Sorry for the all caps but I am not going back to correct! BTW, I read your interview and it was really something. What is Dog? And i also shot at our National High Power Matches in 1982 and 83. Shot an M-14. Really a great weapon!

 

In the early 1920s the Newcastle Brewery invented Newcastle Brown Ale. In a society where maybe 3% proof was normal for a beer until maybe 20 years ago, Newcastle Brown weighed in at 4.7%. It still does, but sadly the lager-drinking clture has led to young men thinking that lager = beer and strength is everything. Where I come from, lager is and always has been a woman's drink. In the North-east of England, Newcastle Brown is also known as Mother's Milk. You get the drift? Lunatic's Broth. Jorney Inter Sace and so on.

 

Urban myth has it that Newcastle's Royal Victoria Infirmary has (had) a wing solely for the purpose of drying out drunken Geordies with a Brown Ale habit.

 

As an excuse to nip out and have a swift bottle of Brown Ale (another urban myth has it that it is available on tap in Newcastle) is to take the dog for a walk (down to the pub). Thus it became known as Walk The Dog, or simply Dog or Brown Dog for emphasis.

 

;o)