Sherman DD

[Bob Grundy]

I get old copies of the Times sent to me and came across this book review. The Guns at Last Light by Rick Atkinson (an American I believe) the review is by Michael Tillotson. In it Mr Tillotson states ......the Sherman duplex drive swimming tanks, critical to the first hour on the D Day beaches had to be shipped back to the States for conversion to amphibians----a task beyond British industry. I find this statement incredible and without evidence a slur. What do others think about this as I have never heard of it.

[Hoseman]

I get old copies of the Times sent to me and came across this book review. The Guns at Last Light by Rick Atkinson (an American I believe) the review is by Michael Tillotson. In it Mr Tillotson states ......the Sherman duplex drive swimming tanks, critical to the first hour on the D Day beaches had to be shipped back to the States for conversion to amphibians----a task beyond British industry. I find this statement incredible and without evidence a slur. What do others think about this as I have never heard of it.

 

I reckon we have a fite to decide............not just yet tho, after tea!!:cool2:

[Great War truck]

Does he say what a conversion of a DD to an amphibian entails? Sounds like this has no basis in historical fact.

[Adrian Barrell]

I say it's rubbish. He may be confused with the late, HVSS DD which were, I seem to remember manufactured as kits in the US.

[AlienFTM]

I get old copies of the Times sent to me and came across this book review. The Guns at Last Light by Rick Atkinson (an American I believe) the review is by Michael Tillotson. In it Mr Tillotson states ......the Sherman duplex drive swimming tanks, critical to the first hour on the D Day beaches had to be shipped back to the States for conversion to amphibians----a task beyond British industry. I find this statement incredible and without evidence a slur. What do others think about this as I have never heard of it.

 

By January 1944 it was clear that it would not be possible to produce the required number of DDs in the UK in time. When the concept was shown to the Americans, they started production immediately and met the targets (with numbers to spare: 15/19H retrained on DD Shermans in the days before the invasion but no space ever appeared on the loading list, so they retrained again on Cromwells and finally got to France in August).

 

So while I do not believe that Shermans were transported back to the USA per se for conversion, I do believe that the DD conversion was taken to the USA and DDs were built there from scratch, before transported across the Atlantic once, not three times.

 

It's a question of how you read that one sentence I guess.

[the_shadock]

I think that the answer is there :

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/duplexdrive/duplexdrive.html

 

 

The table above show British monthly production of Duplex Drive using M4A4 and M4A2 hulls. The USA produced Duplex Drive from M4A1(75) tanks only, they used the small hatch and large hatch variants.

 

"The British demonstrated the DD to US planners in November 1943. Soon after, it was decided that the US would also employ DDs for the invasion, scheduled at that time for May 1944. Since British production could not meet US requirements, the initial plan called for the manufacture of conversion kits in the States, which would then be applied to US Army Shermans already in the UK. However, the complex nature of the design quickly led to the conclusion that it would be preferable to do the complete conversions in the US.

 

The use of the M4A1(75) required the relocation of the air cleaners to the inside of the engine compartment. In their original positions, they interfered with the application of the DD frame, as well as the proper operation of the propellers. This change required 50 to 75 man hours, and was one of the reasons it was decided to do the conversions in the US.

 

The conversion program commenced in January 1944. Due to the secret nature of the project, assembly areas were cordoned off, and the finished units were shipped completely encased in plywood boxes. Training began on March 15 with the arrival of the first 4 M4A1 DDs. Remarkably, 348 were delivered to the UK by the end of April."

 

Pierre-Olivier

Edited October 16, 2013 by the_shadock

[Old Git]

It's a question of how you read that one sentence I guess

 

Or, the manner in which the sentence is worded! Can we confirm that the reported sentence is verbatim?

 

Incidentally, this is the third book in Rick Atkinson's trilogy on the American Army in WWII. He won the Pulitzer prize for his first volume, "An Army at Dawn", but that's a wee bit like getting a Purple Heart for being wounded by broken glass whilst sipping beer in an East End pub during the Blitz! :red: :angel:

[ajmac]

So the key piece of infomation to take from this is that there are essentially two versions of Sherman DDs; the British conversions for British and possibly Canadian use (of which there were Sherman III and Sherman V variants), converted in England and the USA conversions for US Army use. It is so easy to cut out some 'little' details and change the narative!

[Bob Grundy]

Or, the manner in which the sentence is worded! Can we confirm that the reported sentence is verbatim?

 

Incidentally, this is the third book in Rick Atkinson's trilogy on the American Army in WWII. He won the Pulitzer prize for his first volume, "An Army at Dawn", but that's a wee bit like getting a Purple Heart for being wounded by broken glass whilst sipping beer in an East End pub during the Blitz! :red: :angel:

What Tillotson says is verbatim from his review in the Times Saturday Review June 29 2013. I have no desire to plough through this book, if there is one error then there will be others in my experience. Anyone got the book so we can read what Atkinson actually wrote ?

[Old Git]

I've actually got the first volume but haven't gotten around to reading it just yet. However, here are a couple of reviews of the first volume cribbed from Amazon.co.uk...

 

Without a doubt the worst book on the North African invasion. Whilst he shows an aptitude for combing 1st person accounts with a steady paced strategic narrative Atkinson is no military historian and his inability to describe engagements in anything other than the immature hyperbole so beloved of the journalist historian is frankly embarrasing.

Under the impression that World War Two starts with the American landings, the author fails to balance his baleful ignorance with anything new leaving a book notable only for the length of the notes and sources (100 pages - wonder how many he actually read)

The only book I have ever thrown away (actually used it to light the BBQ, so it served some purpose)

A wanabe Ambrose who has watched too many 60's war films. Avoid. For those who need an American centric study Meeting the Fox is infinately better which is saying something (btomhutuk on Amazon).

 

And this one

 

With its Pulitzer Prize and long list of plaudits `An Army at Dawn' came with a great deal of expectation for this reader riding on it. On occasion I have been left underwhelmed by works carrying the weight of so many 5 star reviews. However in this case the laurels are all well deserved and I would have no hesitation about putting this up there with the very best of histories of the Second World War.

Although sub-titled `The campaign in North Africa 1942-43', Rick Atkinson's focus is here on Operation Touch and the subsequent Tunisian campaign. This means that 8th Army's operations in 1942 (Gazala and El Alamein) get very little mention until Montgomery's forces reach the Tunisian boarder in early 1943. The `Army' of the title is very much the US Army in its first major operation in the European Theatre of Operations, although ironically the action all occurs on the African continent. Whilst the story of this first rather amateurish and somewhat shambolic entry of the US military into WW2 is clearly the primary focus of the book, the author is then able to expand the scope of his work into a thorough account of the Tunisian campaign. Here the action switches between the enthusiastic but naive Americans and the experienced but battle-weary British and with all the controversies and clashes of personalities within the Great Alliance being first played out. These would continue through Sicily, Normandy and beyond the Rhine.

As a British reader it would be easy to become prickled by some of this American author's opinions on British generalship, in particular Generals Montgomery and Anderson. However Atkinson is more than scathing of the US performance where it warrants and in my opinion his analysis and conclusions on the performance of all parties is in the end fair and balanced. The author always displays great empathy and admiration for the courage and sacrifices of all the allies involved.

This book is particularly welcome as the Tunisian campaign is often overlooked by both US and British historians. Rick Atkinson goes a long way to restore it to its important place in the story of the defeat of Hitler and where the US Army was first tempered in battle. One can only be grateful that the fledgling US forces were not flung into a cross channel invasion in 1943 without the benefit of the experience gained in this campaign.

Perhaps an interesting element, which raises the work out of the normal military history crowd, are the accounts of the treatment of the Arab and native populations. Although the Allies are clearly liberators, for the indigenous peoples it is a more ambiguous experience. Not only is there the return of their colonial masters but also the random extrajudicial justice handed out by US and British forces. The author gives a number of examples of what would today be regarded as war crimes committed by the Allied armies against the local inhabitants but which are mostly ignored at the time. Clearly the past is a different country compared with modern heart-and-minds campaigns. It is this aspect which demonstrates that even a war with as clear a moral purpose as the WW2 is in the end drawn in ethical shades of grey.

Overall highly recommended and probably the best account you will find of the Tunisian campaign. I look forward to reading the next two parts of his `Liberation Trilogy' with enormous anticipation (N.Brown on Amazon).