Cyclone303 Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Hello all, I am currently restoring a British XXX corps HQ jeep but i cannot find any info on the correct tac signs for it. Im pretty sure that the Vehicle patch is the same as the shoulder patch, black square with white cirle and black boar but im not sure. Also i would like to know what the formation number would be as i only know that HQ is a black square with white numbering. Does anyone know what the number would be? Also if you have pics they would be helpful to see aswell. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 There are two versions of the Boar, rampant, so to speack and the PC one. :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 IN the book formation badges of world war two only one badge is displayed the one you described for 30 corp as to Headquarters serial numbers you have a choice they are as follows HQ AND HQ COY the number 30 HQ DIV AND HQ COY /SQN the number 40 lastly CORP HQ the number 100 I hope that this does not confuse you all these are as you say are on a black background this information comes from document vehicle unit signs north west Europe 1944 /1945 hope this helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fayjo56 Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Try this link, the clearest illustration of Brit markings I have found. http://souchman-home.com/Les-marquages-anglais/linfanterie.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 This QL was 30 corp originally though signals. The original Boar had very pronunced genitalia, this is the later more 'refined' Boar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone303 Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 Hi Fellas, Thanks for the help, its a little more clearer now. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone303 Posted June 5, 2013 Author Share Posted June 5, 2013 IN the book formation badges of world war two only one badge is displayed the one you described for 30 corp as to Headquarters serial numbers you have a choice they are as follows HQ AND HQ COY the number 30 HQ DIV AND HQ COY /SQN the number 40 lastly CORP HQ the number 100 I hope that this does not confuse you all these are as you say are on a black background this information comes from document vehicle unit signs north west Europe 1944 /1945 hope this helps Hi mate, I am restoring it as Gen. Horrocks jeep so what would you say it would be for that? because i have seen 17 not 100 on some restored pics but am not sure they are correct. Also did the british ever use the red background with gold stars for their generals? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 HI CHRIS To answer your questions generals stars in the british army are silver look at any picture of MONTYS ROLLS and Humber staff cars I know because I look ed after them for 20 year and still have some silver stars in a box some where thanks for the pm if you send me your address I will photo copy the pages as side I would go for the 100 Iam waiting for a new scanner regards wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 HI again Just looked up vehicle unit number 17 in my book it shows that it belongs to a Field Sqn Royal Engineers and would be on a Blue background regards wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spood Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) According to the book by Peter Hodges (British Military Markings 39-45) Corps Troops HQ is number 17 on a black square. Look for the Aldershot Military Museum site, there is a picture of a Jeep used by Gen Horrocks with 17 on it. Edited June 6, 2013 by Spood Added info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 HI l see what is said about the number 17 on GENERAL HORROCKS jeep the information came from two original dated books one dated 1941 headed vehicle markings the second one 1944/45 headed vehicle unit signs written by command of the army council in these books the number 17 is allocated to field sqd re on a blue back ground so l would ask the following is the picture in colour or black and white is the jeep General Horrocks and not one he was using supplied by his hosts all my working life l have only used information that can be confirmed by use of original documents like many others l have read books written with good intent containing historical mistakes and l am happy if someone can prove me wrong and will admit it regards wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone303 Posted June 7, 2013 Author Share Posted June 7, 2013 Hi Wally, I have seen the picture of the jeep and its in colour but it has a discription saying its his post war jeep. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Ramsden Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 My references say Corps HQ marking is 17 on a black square with white line on top. There's a Jeep of 30 Corps marked like this in IWM photo B5469. It isn't available online but it's in Gavin Birch's book "The Wartime Jeep in British Service". It's a very scruffily painted sign too, which makes it more interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 HI IVOR I have several books written by the war department covering the period 1939 to 1945 on vehicle markings and unit signs in all of these the number 17 is on a blue background not black it does appear after 1945 on a black background this has been confirmed by Chris I also have gavin Birchs book and all the picture are in black and white not colour I have sent Chris copies of these documents which he now has and Iam sure if he reads this he will confirm what I have said further more after 1945/46 unit numbers where reallocated I also have the amended books 1946 through to 1960 kind regards wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAFMT Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 The same number can be used for different units, it's the colour of the background that matters. Iirc the number 40 was used for no less than five different units in an infantry division, but each one had a different background. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 HI ON the number 40 you correct as well as others but please show me original goverment period documentation for 1939 to1945 which I have sent to cyclone303 This is not the first i have been questioned about what I have said the first was on the subject of bridges plates it was said l was flying in the face of what was accepted it was only confirmed when another member of the forum posted a copy of the document i refered to so show me the number 17 on a original document and if I am wrong I will say so on this forum wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbrook Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Thanks to ropey technology and a remarkable bit of cooperation between E Yorkshire and the wilds of Cumbria I now give you the page of the document that Wally refers to. You have no idea how much effort went into getting this to you all but it seems to me that it says it all really As we have said before there may seem to be lots of little anomalies kicking about - but it occurs to me that where there is a definitive guide (and as a precaution and in discussion today with Wally we should point out that this document refers to wartime markings ie up to 1945 but is at the same time is about as definitive as anyone could ask for) then the best thing to do is to bow to the contents therein, rather than something someone overheard someone else saying in the NAAFI queue. Anyway here it is, or at least the relevant page: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Ramsden Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 (edited) That is a page from "Staff Duties in the Field", dated 23rd November 1962. It has no relevance whatsoever to vehicle markings in 1944-45. Edited June 21, 2013 by Ivor Ramsden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 HI IVOR I would refer you to what i said at the start the only reference i could find to the number 17 is the one shown i checked all war department books on unit serial numbers and could not find the number17 mentioned again these books cover all aspects of units including the ones you mentioned while i will state i have no way of knowing if any more original information is out there up to now no one has come forward with a original document to prove me wrong those who know me well know that I have a open mind on the subject if you or any one else can provide that fact i look forward to it up to now all we have are personal quotes by original I mean one written by the war department not by some one after the event as i have been told these books contain errors on this forum r regards wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 HI IVOR Again a quote please show me regards wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Ramsden Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Wally, I don't possess any original documents relating to vehicle arm of service markings so I have to rely on other people's research. I used to use Peter Hodges' book (referred to in post 10 above) but now my main source is Dick Taylor's 4-volume work "Warpaint: Colours and Markings of British Military Vehicles 1903-2003". I do have some original documents covering vehicle colours and markings and cross-referencing Dick's books with these and with captioned photographs shows that his work is commendably accurate so I have every confidence in using it. He gives a very comprehensive bibliography in his work and many of the publications listed are original War Office ones. There might be a few minor mistakes in his books ( although I haven't spotted any) but, limiting our discussion to what a Corps Troops' HQ vehicle's arm of service mark should be, he (and Peter Hodges) says it's 17 on a black square and this is confirmed by a number of IWM photos which show high ranking Corps HQ officers with Jeeps which carry those exact markings. Admittedly they are b/w photos so maybe, just maybe, the squares could be blue but I don't think that these officers can all have been ferried around in Jeeps of RE Field Squadrons. I still can't see what the relevance is to this thread of a publication dated Nov 62. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 GOOD MORNING IVOR thank you for your reply the book I refered to was given to me by a retired army officer who also became a well respected military museum director as well as a writer of military books it is one of the only documents that I have that did not come straight from the mod the front cover states that it covers unit serial numbers north west europe 1944/45 that is the only date on the document any where and up to now I have had no reason to question its contents but saying that up to now I cannot recall refering to it I hope that you know me well enough that I would not give false information out knowingly I still would like to know if some one has a copy of any original documents on this subject that I may not have I am willing to pay REGARDS WALLY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulbrook Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 I did wonder about "corps troops" recognition numbers (or even Div Troops ones for that matter) - Wallys document shows those for brigade(d) units and capbadges so there could theoretically be duplication of numbers at Corps HQ or more general corps level support units. But insofar as the numbers were there to simplify recognition, duplication at the 3* level sounds a bit daft to me. But then militaries throughout the ages have done daft things! I think there is more to know and understand here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAFMT Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Hi Wally, Sorry for the delayed reply, I’ve been away from my PC for a few days. I don’t have the period documents myself, however I have corresponded with Trux in the past over similar matters. He uses period documentation for all his charts etc. so he will be able to tell what he used to get the information he gives here: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/23674-army-and-corps-headquarters/ but the relevant part is All corps units had a white bar at the top of the Arm of Service sign. This might carry an abbreviation of the units name. Corps Headquarters carried the number 17 in white on a black square. There is also the famous photo of Monty visiting 2 Canadian Corps, and their mess sign also uses the number 17 on a black square with white bar as the arm of service marking: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205126493 And here is a 5 Corps staff car again using the 17 in a black square with white bar: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205204675 I am planning to obtain some items from TNA next week so if you like I can see they have any further documents in addition to what you have? Regards, Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 HI BRYAN Thank you for your offer any more information is welcome I sent a copy of my book 1944/5 north west europe unit serial numbers to a friend in the MOD who has access to the original documents on this subject he has sent me the front 3 pages of another book titiled unit serial numbers 1944/5 which I have not seen before and there seem to be changes I have asked him what are the chances of getting a copy of the whole book his reply to day at 12 45 was he is on Leave from the 28 june till the 18 july but will try to get it to me before he goes if not when he gets back the more information we get is better of all of us interested in historical military vehicle history REGARDS WALLY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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