corporalholmes Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Howdy again, Just out of curiosity does anyone know where I could find out more about the CVRT upgrade program, as in what exactly upgraded, for instance I was under the impression that messier dampers were the torsion bars that the cvrt's were upgraded to, but now i'm hearing about armstrong ones, where do they fit in in regards to the program, did the Belgians also upgrade their cvrt's before offloading them to the private market. And has anyone changed the original head on the j60 to the straight port head?, how does the transmission handle it and has anyone notice much of a power and fuel economy increase? Are the diesel Spartans still as rare as hens teeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Oh mate good post, this one could run and run. I am sure more knowledgeable people will be along but here is my take on it. Mezzies were fitted in the 90's (?) so arent really part of the current upgrade program as theyve been around a long time. I dont think the Belgians did this, and nor did they dieselise their fleet. The messier damper is a much more substantial beast than the armstrong and gives a much more effective damping action, especially off road. Until recently they were hard to get hold of and commanded quite a premium, but they are now pretty freely available at least in uk, although still cost more than armstrongs. They are nothing to do with the torsion bars which provide the springing, they just damp the action and stop the vehicle seesawing about. Most uk cvrts were fitted with diesels in the 90s, the conversion involving a different gearbox, engine (obviously!), final drives, and differences in the bulkhead, firewall and decks. There are quite a lot of detail differences so it is difficult for a private owner to do, but not impossible esp as parts are now coming out slowly but surely. Matadormike has a diesel spartan but it is a private conversion using commercially available parts rather than an official one. I dont know of any other diesel spartans personally, although there are a couple of scimitars around with at least one other in progress. Over the last 10 years cvrt has undergone significant upgrades due to experiences in iraq and afghan. Some of these include additional armour, different optics, ecm fitment, bar armour fitment, cheese grater armour fitment you name it. All designed to improve survivability in what is after all a lightly armoured vehicle. Scimitar 2 was introduced recently, which is a scimitar turret on an improved spartan type hull. This features even more changes such as improved seats to reduce blast injuries and get the driver off the floor, and raised controls for the drivers feet, again to reduce injuries. Weight of a theatre entry standard vehicle is now about 13 tons (up from 8) so you have to wonder how much further they can go with these vehicles. Hope that helps and look forward to being corrected! Timbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corporalholmes Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 Thank you fro your reply Timbo, So basically I'll need to look for a Spartan fitted with Messies rather than Armstrongs, is there anything else I should be mindful of when purchasing one, as basically as I'm looking to export it to Oz I'd like to acquire one that would have a few improvements that they bought in, rather than retro fit them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 There is one diesel Spartan and one diesel Sultan in private hands. The MoD only bought so many diesel kits, vehicles which weren't converted were cast in 2004 and the majority ended up being cut up. A fair number of these had messiers fitted when in service, but they were removed along with other bits in short supply before being sold off. This means most Spartans that were restored were fitted with Armstrongs as they were easier to find. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corporalholmes Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 Howdy Chris, I think I spoke to the person with the diesel Spartan and they were wanting a tiny bit more than I could afford, I have noticed that the price for a Spartan is quite varied, if the MoD has taken the stance of cutting up all the surplus cvrts does that mean that majority of the ones in private hands are/were Belgian?, and would the practice of scrapping the cvrts change any time soon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 As Chris says you may have to buy a vehicles with Armstrongs initially, but there are now a few more mezzies around so it should be easy enough to convert, especially if the hull has already been drilled.. There are quite a few belgian vehicles around but i would still say the majority are ex uk, although some belgian have been painted in brit colours. Back to mods - there have been problems with Scimitar 2 handbrakes since they entered service, initially not holding the vehicle, this was partially resolved by fitting Stormer handbrake levers, which have greater leverage, but this has resulted in instances of not being able to release the handbrake, not good if youre trying to make a rapid tactical withdrawal! A new design is now being looked at which removes the dreaded brake bands altogether and uses the main brake calipers to provide the handbrake. There have been threads on previously with 'buying tips' for cvrt's which are well worth searching for.. Thanks Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corporalholmes Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 I typed 'cvrt' into the search and read through 20 pages of info for anything that would pertain to a Spartan, and i have a few questions, what would be a good price to pay for a Spartan at the moment, knowing that I will be driving it so it doesn't quite need to be in show condition, there is no way I'm paying the £25,000 that Jacksons wants In regards to upgrades, as we have already discussed I should look for Messies or atleast buy some and fit them to the Spartan that I do buy if they aren't already fitted, I've read alot that the J60's have a very bad habit of having cooling problems, as I live in an arid environment what are my options for making sure it doesn't die prematurely. has anyone heard anything about this, http://www.scorpiontank.co.uk/PDFs/Upgrade%20Menu/S%202000%20(Militarised)%20High%20Speed%20Diesel%20Engine%20(8%20November%202011).pdf and whether anyone has actually done it and had any success. In regards to searching the forums I'm double checking that all the info is still current and that it hasn't changed at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Innes Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 The repaircraft conversion kit looks wonderful. Has anyone an idea on the cost? I fear a seated position will be in order if a figure is posted!! If this was possible to consider it looks like the bulkhead between the driver & the engine could be reworked to allow a little more room in the driving compartment - a welcome option for those of us who are no longer in fighting trim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 I think the Repaircraft conversion would cost more than the base vehicle, it is aimed at military end users and not the likes of us! There aren't exactly dozens of Spartans for sale, I think you'd need to see what comes up on Milweb or who responds to a wanted advert. Jacksons will be selling Belgian vehicles which are probably very tidy. If someone was to sell one privately I'd expect it to make about £15k if it was a nice one. Regarding the width of the drivers compartment, I think you'd have a hard job making any more space in there.. the bulkhead is right up against the engine, and the engine isn't that big! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Repaircraft arent the only ones offering diesel conversions if you know who to talk to but costwise these are very much aimed at government users and way beyond most of our budgets. My question would be though why bother - sure the diesels have a bit more poke and are less stressed than the j60 but in private hands does it really matter? Are you really likely to do so many miles that fuel consumption is an issue? The sound of a j60 at full chat is music to the ears! There are also plenty of them about and consumables are readily available.. Get one, drive it, enjoy it, break it, fix it....lifes too short not to... Spartan drivers compartment is positively spacious compared to sabre/ scorpion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corporalholmes Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 I wasn't exactly thinking of getting repaircraft to do the conversion, I had never heard of a S2000 conversion before as opposed to a Cummins though, and from what that little ad read it that particular engine work be a better fit as they mentioned that it was smaller than the J60, so no bulkhead conversion and use the same gearbox as the J60. The only reason I was considering a diesel conversion was because all the forums I have read have mentioned that the J60's seem to have a cooling system weak point and as I live in an area where it can get up to 50 degrees I don't know how it would handle it, the fuel consumption side of things is less of an issue I was just curious. My apologies if it sounds like i'm asking really basic questions but I'm only learning about these and if you don't ask you don't learn, and everyone here knows alot and has had alot of experience with cvrt's and I'm just trying to find out what people had tried and basically before I lay my cash down and ship one over I just want to make sure that I'm paying a reasonable price and that considering that I live on the other side of the world chasing up spares won't be as easy as it may be for you guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antar Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Nice one, now you have added your location, we can see where you are from and apreciate logistics and ambient temperatures. I know nothing about CVRT's (apart from selling a few bits now and again when I come by them). My reccomendation is forget those poxy little toy tanks and get yourself a CET, Withams have plenty of completely refurbished ones for sale. At least you can do something with it like dig, doze winch and wade. Sorry just winding up the CVRT boys, I took my tracks test in one it was great ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corporalholmes Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 On the upgrade front, I notice that some CVRT's had headlights that hung down and others that sit upright, when did that change happen, and were there any other subtle changes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Belgian vehicles all had the earlier (under the front lip) headlamps. They were there because of wading screens. When the wading requirement was no longer needed in the early 90s the British removed the old lights and fitted standard headlamps, same as ferret etc. The protective covers came in when the Sabre conversion was carried out in 1994/5. Wading screen brackets were cut off when vehicles were base overhauled after then. The exception is RAF vehicles which never had the wading screens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Im not sure cooling is an issue as such, but you're right in that they do seem to run very warm at the best of times. I was told to make sure the inspection/ maintenance plates on the bottom of the hull were fitted (people often seem to leave them off for ease of access), as without them the airflow through the grills is disturbed and will not cool as it should do. I fitted mine and if Im honest didnt notice any difference. Remember when youre in the driving seat youre not much more than 12 inches away from the engine so it will always be a bit warm! When i took my test in a Sabre a couple of years ago it was one of the hottest days of the year (30ish in our case!), and i wore my army flameproof overalls - never mind boiler suit more like boil in the bag!!! I used to run a ZX7RR race bike which had no fan so was always very warm in the pit lane. I tried some stuff called 'water wetter' which is designed to lower the temperature of cooling systems and it worked very well. Youd probably need quite a bit for a cvrt though. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Nice one, now you have added your location, we can see where you are from and apreciate logistics and ambient temperatures.I know nothing about CVRT's (apart from selling a few bits now and again when I come by them). My reccomendation is forget those poxy little toy tanks and get yourself a CET, Withams have plenty of completely refurbished ones for sale. At least you can do something with it like dig, doze winch and wade. Sorry just winding up the CVRT boys, I took my tracks test in one it was great ! Careful John our numbers are growing y'know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matadormike Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) As Timbo said, my Spartan was a private conversion, the engine is the same family of engine that the MOD conversions have, a Cummins 6B, although unlike the MOD conversions mine isn't turbocharged. The gearbox is also a standard version like the petrol CVRT's so it tops out at about 20mph, not really a problem though. I just saw on milweb that in Witham's next tender sale there are a few CVRT's including Spartan(s?) http://www.mod-sales.com/ Also it appears that terryb on here has recently listed a Spartan on milweb http://www.milweb.net/classifieds/large_image.php?ad=65796&cat=1 Don't know whether it's still available though, maybe worth a call. I bought my Spartan from him and he's a great bloke. Cheers Mike Edited January 31, 2013 by matadormike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 The CVRTs in the tender sale are petrol variants that have been stood outside for 10 years. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matadormike Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 A bit of a project then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 The CVRTs in the tender sale are petrol variants that have been stood outside for 10 years. Chris From what I hear, they are in pretty poor shape and have many parts missing but if you wanted a cheap way in to cvrt ownership and are willing to put some hard work in they could be a bargain. Personally Id go for a Spartan as there are less parts to find so you could be up and running more quickly.. Oh and I have a number of A2 recon engines for sale at very reasonable prices!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corporalholmes Posted February 1, 2013 Author Share Posted February 1, 2013 I have been chatting with Terry about buying his Spartan, it's ex Belgian and he wants about 15k for it, I'm in two minds as I'm in Australia the exchange rate works out that I'll need to add about 1/3 the price, so I was thinking whether another option would be to buy an engine and a refurb Spartan and tick along with it myself,as I work with a bunch of heavy vehicle fitters, but getting parts in Oz would be hard. Apparently Withams does have a Spartan in the current tender but it will need to be refurbed, they don't have a reserve but are expecting it to fetch more than the scrap price (which is supposed to be 3k), they do have 6-7 Spartans in the next tender that will also require refurb. I had thought about buying the J60 that had been refurbed to A1 but I wouldn't know where to store it until the export paperwork gets sorted, even worse for a Spartan as Withams charges £28 a day storage fees. I do plan on driving it whilst I have it much like a collector drives a muscle car on Sundays, so I'm not looking for pristine condition, but I would at least like to not blow up the engine or gearbox because it can't handle the ambient temperature, as the only time it rains here is when there is a cyclone and the rain comes in sideways Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 For someone living so far away from the UK you need to be buying the best vehicle you can, then shipping it over with spare engines, gearbox, wheels, track, etc etc. It can be hard to find these bits when we need them, much harder for you when you need them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corporalholmes Posted February 1, 2013 Author Share Posted February 1, 2013 Very true, very true, is there anyway of strengthening the gearboxes in them at all, and how hard is it to chase up one of those? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 The latest standard of diesel gearbox is much stronger, but probably costs as much as 5 running Spartans. Take out boxes do come up from time to time, I've only ever seen one recon box for sale. Not cheap either. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corporalholmes Posted February 1, 2013 Author Share Posted February 1, 2013 I was meaning the petrol gearboxes, I wonder how hard it would be to chase up the parts you need to rebuild one, seeing as I work with a bunch of fitters, I could try and chase up a service manual for one and with a bit of beer get one rebuilt for a fraction of the cost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.