fv1609 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Has anyone experienced buying air in the filling station? I don't mean the airline for tyres, I mean air in the fuel. I suspect it is more common than we think. Most of us insert the nozzle in the filler tube squeeze & listen to the reassuring sound of fuel going in whilst watching the £ display jump by alarming amounts. After experiences last year I now hold the nozzle not fully in allowing me to see the fuel entering. On one occasion I could hear the rumble of the pump but couldn't experience turbulence of fuel flowing in the nozzle. I withdrew the nozzle to see there was no fuel being delivered but the counter showed I had purchased a pound or so of fuel. I couldn't attract the attention of staff, so had to go to the counter. I couldn't leave the nozzle without replacing it in the pump. The staff were adamant that albeit a small quantity of fuel had been purchased. I went back to the pump whereupon it functioned normally & for the sake of a pound I paid for 2 "deliveries" of fuel. The next time this happened I was more lucky as it was in my local where I am known & am a good customer in that I buy fuel for 5 vehicles on a regular basis. Luckily the manager was there, I was able to summon him & to my delight it only delivered air for him. He replaced the nozzle & tried again still air. Then when it started he replaced the nozzle, then on the third delivery it was working. So I was only required to pay for the third "delivery" of fuel. A few weeks ago I was at a garage which had just had a tanker delivery. As I pressed the nozzle it had reached £1.28 before any fuel appeared. I went to the manager who was totally disbelieving. He maintained that the pump would only register fuel if it had been delivered through the nozzle. Furthermore the pump couldn't be short of fuel as they had just received a delivery. He couldn't grasp the possibility of an air lock. He came out & personally filled up my tank demonstrating that there was no fault & that I was expected to pay for my two "deliveries" of fuel. After an impasse the manager became unavailable but had apparently now instructed the cashier to charge me only for the second delivery. So did he know that this sort of thing can happen & was maintaining a denial in case others try it on? Or had he never experienced a customer ever notice this? So is this something that happens more often? Do filling stations rely on people not noticing & if they do just get shirty & make out the customer is being fraudulent? I found it a most tiresome experience. On a similar note I sometimes experience frothy fuel at one filling station & others the fuel comes out in a streamlined way with minimal air. Does the frothed fuel register on the counter as if it is 100% fuel? I suspect it does if it can count "fuel" in when it is just air. Anyone had these sort of encounters & how do you handle it without being looked upon as a fraudster? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Daymond Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I once fell foul of some inbred at a filling station, in Wakefield, when unleaded became more popular but you could still get leaded, I found to my frustration that the petrol pump kept clicking off, and I managed after several attempts to get 16p of fuel before I was so hacked off I moved to another pump. The new pump wasn't activated until I queued in the shop and paid the 16p. When I complained that there was a problem with the pump, I was told that I was trying to use leaded in an unleaded vehicle and 'the pump sensed this' and that was why it wasn't delivering the fuel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Unless a pre-determined amount is selected prior to delivery - then they can't use a metering pump as such (like with a central heating oil delivery tanker that blows the pipe clear (but I understand that can be frigged) , however they have a fair bit of kit inside the cabinet and with Trading Standard spot checks - if it was possible then I think it would have been highlighted years ago and pumps have not stood still , the £ advances at a fair rate but I mean the designs http://www.gilbarco.eu/en/product_1.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormin Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Happened to me about ten years ago. I bought what I thought was a full tank from the motorway services local to me, seemed exceptionally slow going but eventually registered about £50 or whatever. When I pulled out of the services I noticed the fuel gauge still on empty. My first thought was that the fuel gauge was stuck near the bottom. The following day I ran out of fuel on the motorway and had to walk to another services to purchase a can and some fuel. I then went back to the first and offending service station and made a complaint. I was recompensed for my fuel and cost of the can on the spot after the assistant spoke to the manager. I must admit it has made me wonder how when pumps are supposed to be calibrated and checked to British standards they can deliver nothing but still register a cost. Seems this fault has always been there but no-one is admitting to it. I wonder how many short measures you buy of fuel ordinarily? The government won't be bothered as long as they get their tax, even on fresh air. Hmm, reminds me of a song! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightweight Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 (but I understand that can be frigged)http://www.gilbarco.eu/en/product_1.aspx Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightweight Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 (but I understand that can be frigged)Really?I don't see that's physically possible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big ray Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I dont imagine that there is a supply system in the country thats not being fiddled by an unscrupulous supplier, so why not fuel? And its a fact that you should be able to see the delivery into your tank, we do tend to be rather trusting of people that we percieve to be honest. One has to wonder how widespread corruption might be in the fuel industry, the monies now involved in relatively small quantities surely must make this a real target for the criminal element, perhaps time for some changes at the pumps???????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormin Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 The margins to the fuel retailer are miniscule I believe in the order of a few pence, so there's obviously a great incentive for them to try and fiddle a bit extra out of the customer. The real fuel crime, apart from the tax though is straight forward theft, either drive offs or as seems popular round here, stealing from HGV tanks. It's not unknown for axes to be taken to the deisel tank of an HGV to enable it to be sucked dry of fuel with a purpose made rig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Really?I don't see that's physically possible! If you are taking a delivery of central heating oil , often it is on a long hose. The metered amount on the meter print off includes that which is in the hose. If you are not present to witness the content in the hose being blow into your tank - then a unscrupulous delivery driver can blow it into another tank compartment.. A bit like a lad I knew who worked in a garage , he used to brag he never put petrol in his own motorbike tank because he drained the U bend in the hoses after drivers left the forecourt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
private mw Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 ive noticed air going in instead of fuel , and a few years ago on my way to work tried fueling the landrover up noticed just air and no fuel price now £1.36 i went in garage and asked she told me the tanks where empty and i still had to pay the £1.36 because it was showing on the pump ! :nut: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 you should be able to see the delivery into your tank, Yes, I can remember old fashioned pumps had a glass chamber that showed there was fuel & flowing as it drove a little disc. That was a lot more reassuring than a digital display, counting the flow of air and/or fuel. http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sciencephoto.com/image/339878/large/T1100577-Old_fashioned_fuel_pump-SPL.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/339878/enlarge&usg=__aAW3J48aIaEDfX39pKWh9Rsz7Fw=&h=530&w=398&sz=53&hl=en&start=38&zoom=1&tbnid=JRIign06DXZ23M:&tbnh=133&tbnw=100&ei=zSkKTu6sBJO5hAeszYzwDw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dold%2Bfashioned%2Bpetrol%2Bpump%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DFSz%26sa%3DX%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26biw%3D1095%26bih%3D601%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=499&vpy=216&dur=8187&hovh=259&hovw=194&tx=110&ty=191&page=3&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:38&biw=1095&bih=601 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Ramsden Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 (edited) First, let's set your mind at rest about your final point - frothy fuel. Diesel can be a sod for frothing but it only froths as it comes out of the nozzle. When it's passing through the pump and the meter it's un-frothy. It doesn't have air mixed with it in the storage tank and it can't get air added to it whilst it's passing through the pipes and the pump because they are all sealed from the atmosphere. Consequently all that's being measured and charged for is fuel. So, if the pump appears to be measuring air, where's the air coming from? The fuel pick-up pipe is immersed in the fuel in the underground storage tank until the level drops so low as to expose the end. At that time - and only at that time - the pump will suck air/fuel but it is fitted with an air separator which should, if it is working correctly, bleed off the air. The air separator is in the line before the meter so only fuel should be metered. When this is happening the delivery from the nozzle will be so slow as to make it obvious that something is amiss. It is possible to fiddle the air separator by blocking its air vent, which is why there's a couple of "shoulds" above. Normally the pump is sucking up unaerated fuel so the only time that this fiddle would work is when the tank is almost empty and it surely isn't worth the hassle. The other circumstance when the meter might measure fuel without you actually receiving it is if the pump nozzles haven't been locked overnight and some thieving git has drained the hoses, which are normally full right to the squeezy handle on the pump nozzle. This is like the scenario that Ruxy mentions. I'm not sure if this can actually be done (there might be an anti-drain valve in the nozzle but I'm fairly sure there isn't) but if it can, it could be only be done whilst the pumps are switched off, otherwise the pump will be activated when the nozzle is removed from the pump casing. If the hose has been emptied, when the first customer goes to fill his tank the first bit of fuel will go to fill the empty rubber hose - a litre or so depending on the length of the hose. Another thing that might just happen if the hose can actually be drained (and I've only just thought of this) is that some bright spark might have realised that if they deliver fuel into their tank then turn the pump off, they can drain the hose and nick a hose-worth of fuel without the pump being turned back on by the attendant. The pump won't reactivate until the attendant clears it. Your £1.28 delivery sounds like the pump was filling the empty rubber hose, a scenario which could happen if the site had run out of fuel and yours was the first delivery of new fuel through the pump. I'm a retard - sorry - retired Trading Standards Officer so I know a bit about fuel pumps - but this thread has made me realise I don't know as much as I thought! I must ask my former colleagues to experiment with draining hoses. This has reminded me about the daft prats that you sometimes see who, after finishing a delivery of fuel, let go of the nozzle whilst it's still in their car's tank and lift the rubber hose up, thinking that they are emptying it into their tank. Tee hee. That's worn me out - beer time ... Argh, back again - if you think you've been made to pay for filling an empty hose, contact your trading standards bods. If the garage has run out of fuel they should bleed the pumps before letting the public use them otherwise they are selling short measure. In my day they'd have been prosecuted .... Eeh, when I were a lad ... Edited June 28, 2011 by Ivor Ramsden Additional ranting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 Ivor thank you. In the recent incident the fuel tanker was still parked at the garage, so that might fit. It seems extraordinary the manager was not aware of the possibilities. I found it disgraceful that he displayed such off hand & aggressive arrogance before cancelling the first "delivery" & then storming off & shutting himself in his office. There was no excuse for it, on my part there was no shouting, bad language, aggressive tactics or threats. I was very embarrassed & explained the situation as best I could in a crowded shop. So I won't be going there if I'm ever that way again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rover8FFR Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 In the good old days the customer was always right and he had the benefit of the doubt. Has society now created this attitude where the honest paying customer is treated like the con man? Your damned if you do complain / raise a concern and your damned if you don't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike65 Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 I once fell foul of some inbred at a filling station, in Wakefield, when unleaded became more popular but you could still get leaded, I found to my frustration that the petrol pump kept clicking off, and I managed after several attempts to get 16p of fuel before I was so hacked off I moved to another pump. The new pump wasn't activated until I queued in the shop and paid the 16p. When I complained that there was a problem with the pump, I was told that I was trying to use leaded in an unleaded vehicle and 'the pump sensed this' and that was why it wasn't delivering the fuel! That sounds like a load of bovine excrement to me. I know they made unleaded only cars have a smaller filler cap and the pump had a smaller nozzle. Mind you is it Ford advertising the new Fiesta as having a sensor which tells you if you are adding the wrong fuel? My father in law has a Honda Stream and if he tries to fill up at the nearest Tesco's the pump keeps shutting off. Its OK everywhere else though. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longydagun Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 This is infact interesting as i myself work at a fuel station. Its a BP franchise just outside of Attleborough! People who live in Norfolk will know that our prices are expensive in comparison to others around us! However having worked there for a number of years now i have not experianced this problem! All of our pumps work to my knowledge and as stated we get more problems with things like drive off's! Last one i had to deal with was a business man who decided he didnt need to pay for his £110 of diesel in his Audi A6! But i am intreguied to here of any more incidents of this! Many thanks Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted June 29, 2011 Author Share Posted June 29, 2011 This is infact interesting as i myself work at a fuel station. Its a BP franchise just outside of Attleborough! People who live in Norfolk will know that our prices are expensive in comparison to others around us!However having worked there for a number of years now i have not experianced this problem! All of our pumps work to my knowledge and as stated we get more problems with things like drive off's! Last one i had to deal with was a business man who decided he didnt need to pay for his £110 of diesel in his Audi A6! But i am intreguied to here of any more incidents of this! Many thanks Al Al I think the rarity of the event is that most people would be totally unaware that they were being sold air. The nozzle is in the filler tube, you can see the digital counter telling you that you are spending money, the pump is making a noise & the vibration can be felt in the nozzle. I'm not suggesting that it is fraud on the part of the filling station, but some glitch in the procedure when perhaps the pump has run dry & the tanker has then delivered. I suppose it is only 3 occasions in 3 years for me, which is the period I have been checking. But most motorists will not be looking out for this problem & accept the displayed amount delivered in good faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 I would expect on modern pumps with all the gubbins that it would have a volumetric flow rate meter (turbine in fuel line) BUT interlocked with something like a mass flow rate meter that would detect the presence of air at any point in the delivery and go to automatic lock-out.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Ramsden Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 I would expect on modern pumps with all the gubbins that it would have a volumetric flow rate meter (turbine in fuel line) BUT interlocked with something like a mass flow rate meter that would detect the presence of air at any point in the delivery and go to automatic lock-out.. Hmmm. As far as I know pump technology hasn't moved on much from where it was 20 years ago. The old air eliminator design worked well - it actually removed air - something that a mass flow rate meter can't do. I'm 3 years out of date now (God, I love being retired) but I'd be surprised if there was much additional electronic sh*te in fuel pumps. Most if not all of the meters are still piston displacement types which are old tech but very effective. The outer casings and digital displays look modern but most of the works inside are much the same as they were ages ago. In more than a few years in Trading Standards I never came across a situation where somebody had fiddled a fuel pump. All the meter adjustments are, or were, sealed with bits of wire and lead seals so they were pretty much tamperproof. Good news for the buyer is that, as meters wear, they give a bigger measure. One of the joys of joining the EC was that the tolerances allowed on all weighing and measuring equipment were changed. In the old days if they were giving short they were condemned. Now they can give a bit short because they are allowed a small negative error as well as a positive one. Combined with the fact that meters can be very accurately set, this means that the bloody things can be, and are, deliberately set to give short measure. Not a lot of people know that, as they say. This doesn't happen in the Isle of Man for two reasons - first we're not in the EC and second, I updated the weights & measures regulations here and, being a tight *rse, I wasn't going to allow myself to be legally screwed whilst buying fuel. And you can still buy a pound of sausages here! None of Napoleon's metric b*llox here! End of Ramsden's daily rant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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