ajmac Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 I was looking for some info my the Loyds when they were at Elsenborn and came up with this PDF. If you click the item you get the photo, some of the Fireflies and M10s as hard targets are in excellent condition. http://www.afvregister.org/Downloads/The%20Belgian%20Historical%20Afv%20register.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 Very nice:nut: should keep lots of members happy for hours. Looking through I noticed a nice grizzly listed as tank number 9- I would think it is possibly Shop No.69 former the Budge tank Anne which I think went to that weirdly named weapons museum in Switzerland -possibly it has escaped. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 If you are looking for pictures of your carriers I can help you , I saw them just before they went. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy8men Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 grerat link alastair, i hadn't seen these wrecks before cheers eddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tichenor Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 Hi guys Initially I had collected the info for the G104 group, so it was exclusive about Shermans. Later on the step to all the armour wasn't that big, so the result is that Pdf file. Its my intention to update it twice a year, a lot of stuff moves around and there are always new dicoveries. That Grizzly is Shop N° 9 according the owner, I believe he did even send me a picture of the Shop N°. Michel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 (edited) Hi Michael, I've studied Grizzlies from the 1980s and used to run a list (data base well not quite) which has now become a little out of date. I've examined the Grizzly in question and can confirm it is No69. The simple (technical) reason why the Turnhout Grizzly is 69 not 9 is its armour configuration, it has welded on appliqué sponson armour if it was No9 it would have a smooth carapace without either appliqué or cast in armour re-enforcement. Grizzlies numbered from 1 to certainly 25 have smooth hulls 25 is the Bovington tank mentioned in the Gateguards thread. Appliqué hulls start at around 26 to 30 the earliest I have so far confirmed is No38 but photos of earlier tanks IDed by DND numbers take it back to No.28 and so far the CT DND Shop No. algorithm has not let me down. The highest number for welded appliqué Grizzlies is No114 (confirmed in USA) Bulged tanks start between 115 and 119 ( 119 is the Ist bulged tank I have confirmed now in USA). The last confirmed Grizzly extant is No.185 at Portsmouth D.Day museum. As to "soixante neuf" it was one of A.F. Budge Grizzlies and was marked Anne -I believe for Tonys wife. It was transfered to Mike Stalllwards facility in Kent -which is where I examined the Shop Number - having been given permision as long as I rewrapped the tarpaulins afterward. If only the 9 is now visible- then either the paint has gotten too thick, the viewer does not have sharp enough eyes or the number has been altered- personally as I'm generous I think it is probably the paint. It was then shipped to the Museum of the Instruments of Conflict and Justice in Geneva and when that collection was dispersed it eventually became part of the Turnout collection -it is still marked the same as it was while in Geneva. I'll repeat the photo of number 68 to show how weak the stampings and note someone has actually stripped back the paint. The weakest and most problematic stamp is that for 7. The tank number 7 which is plated and it's number was confirmed as CT160199 - DND 75-993 the number was so poor it was thought to throw out the number sequence, being reported at various times as No.8 and No.9, however the tank which is now in Belgium was examined by Guy Retters, himself a Grizzly owner, and his opinion is that the number is actually 7 as it should be and thus the number are sequencial. As I mentioned on the gateguards thread "Smokin Jo" a Budge Grizzly was reported as number 1 because the 7 was very faint -it was also given the CT and DND for tank No 76 but that was possibly down to faint paint marking visible in paint layers being mis -interperated, Ct 160264 against CT160269 and DND 62-691 against DND62- 696. Having said that the co-ordinator of Budge was emphatic that Smokin Jo was not the first production Grizzly, -that is the Duxford tank. Steve Edited October 1, 2010 by steveo578 photo problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tichenor Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 (edited) Hi Steve I've just contacted the owner of that Grizzly, and... lets blame it on the paint hmm. He also confirmed she came from Geneva, so that should be enough to say its N°69. Some more recent pictures of it: Michel Edited October 1, 2010 by tichenor Typo error Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted October 1, 2010 Share Posted October 1, 2010 Hi Michel That was a quick response to my post -I'm impressed. It's an actractive tank even from behind:-D I assume the number you use for your photos are signicant to you but it could show how easy it is to get confusions Grizzly N°69 2.jpg Grizzly No176 is actually the Grizzly at the New Zealand army museum, it was one of the Grizzlies that were slated for targeting by the British MOD when the bottom dropped out of the Grizzly market in 1984 -fortunately many were recovered before any real damage was done -including No 176 which was refurbished for the Bovington tank museum by a contractor in Sturminster Marshal and swapped for something from NZ -I think it was an M41. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 including No 176 which was refurbished for the Bovington tank museum by a contractor in Sturminster Marshal and swapped for something from NZ -I think it was an M41. Steve It was, though the relative degree of 'refurbishment' caused a few raised eyebrows in NZ.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 Adrian Barrell ....though the relative degree of 'refurbishment' caused a few raised eyebrows in NZ. I was trying to be diplomatic:angel:. I believe the Kiwis were hoping for a "proper" Sherman. Am I correct in thinking that Grizzly 176 came off SPTA, was it the only one alocated to SPTA? and does anyone have better photos of it either before or after it went to NZ. Photo Grizzly 176 Judith fitted with Sherman style tracks Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 I can't remember where it came from, I believe it sat in the car park for a while before being 'refurbed'. I understand Waiouru were a little disappointed by the condition of the Grizzly, they supplied a fully rebuilt M41 and had been led to believe the Grizzly had been subject to a similar treatment. Lost in translation.....? :-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tichenor Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Steve Grizzly N°69 2.jpg is in fact a strange twist of the programming. The picture is named Grizzly N° 69.jpg but the database or the program behind the forum can't work woth the °, so jou get a ° in place. The tank number 7 which is plated and it's number was confirmed as CT160199 - DND 75-993 the number was so poor it was thought to throw out the number sequence, being reported at various times as No.8 and No.9, however the tank which is now in Belgium It is? any more details on this one, seems to be missing in my records. BTW. all those wrecks on the ranges here in Belgium belong to the Brussels museum and they may not sell a single artefact from the collection. However they can trade a piece of armour for an other piece, if it has a historic value for Belgium or if it fits somehow in the collection. Small hint, they are still looking for a M36 Jackson. Michel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 t ichenor .......if it has a historic value for Belgium or if it fits somehow in the collection. Small hint, they are still looking for a M36 Jackson. If I had a complete M36 I'd what all the M10 on the ranges as a swap.:-D Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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