question Home Guard or ARP uniform

[bodvoc]

First of all Hi All,

 

can anyone please help me?

 

I am John and I am a volunteer support worker working with the disabled and learning difficulty/mental illness persons aging from young adults to pensioners (some of which are ex-service men), all with a passionate interest in history, especially WWI & WWII.

 

I organise tours of museums and historical sites and dressed in period clothing (and as part of a local “Bring History to life” scheme), I (with others) then give a full tour and historically accurate account of what is being seen.

 

However I desperately need a WWII Home Guard uniform (or regular soldiers or ARP or a RAF Pilots uniform) , as well as any accessories or memorabilia to create the part of this interactive tours starting next month (mid Oct).

 

Costume size would need to fit a chunky male 5’8”, Chest 48” waist 40” Leg 30” and has to be wearable and in fair to good condition.

 

Things like Ration Books, gas mask, webbing, caps/hats/helmets and belts etc are also needed to complete the uniforms.

 

I do this role as a volunteer, so my funds are very limited any hints or cheap sources would be great :-D I have tried ebay and the local Army surplus but had no luck so far.

 

Thank you for reading ;o)

 

John

Edited September 29, 2010 by bodvoc

[ajmac]

As far as uniform goes you have two choices:

Denim battle dress which the HG used in the early years.

Serge Battle dress which they used until the stand down in December 1944.

 

As far as cost goes, I'd forget searching for original items, most is small sizes and expensive (I've got both denum and an original Serge BD blouse and trouser given to me by a HG chap back in the late 1990s).

 

I'd buy a reproduction Serge BD blouse and trousers, you want the early or later utility pattern but not the post war open collar blouse. You need the following items to complete the set:

 

37 Patt BAR ammunition pouches

Leather 37 Patt Belt* (*it's not called 37 Patt, but I can't remember the year ATM)

Special HomeGuard rear strap webbing

37 Patt cross straps

Leather 37 Patt gaiters* dyed black

Standard Wartime Ammunition Boots

Army style insignia on your BD Blouse, or a HG arm band if you go for the Denim.

Gas mask in chest mounted bag, again my official terms are rusty.

Forage cap and steel helmet (Mk1).

 

At the end of the day most of the public wouldn't know what they were wearing back in the 1940s, so a set of serge BD and a 37 patt belt, gaiters and modern army rubber soled amunition boots, topped off with a steel helmet would do fine. If you go for original it is going to cost you in both time and money!

[BIGREDONE]

If your down south try Sabre sales in Southsea the will have most if not all clothing you require at a good price, ask for Dicky.

http://www.sabresales.co.uk/index.html

 

For repro paperwork, there are several dealers on the web just do a google search but you could try these packs normally sell at about a fiver each.

http://www.mempackcompany.com/

 

Also register at http://www.wwiireenacting.co.uk/ they are a wealth of Knowledge

 

Good hunting

 

Paul

[bodvoc]

Hi Bigredone & Ajmac,

 

Thanks for the pointers and advice.

 

Already tried Sabre, he had no uniforms that would fit me :blush:, just to broader shoulders lol.. Though he has the webbing/gas mask etc that would do. So I may have to opt for a a 1930s suit with odd bits to make a "homely" home guard :cry: but would of prefered pat 37 serge BD.. so not to look like something out of the early Dad's Army show.

 

The Poole (Dorset) HG were a pretty under equipped bunch, scrounging/trading a lot of stuff off the local RAF & RNAS units in the early days, so I have a bit of leyway there (I hope lol)

 

I have just been promised a real ration book, petrol and tobacco coupons to make repros from (good old photoshop ). Just need a real National ID card and I am sorted there..

 

Thanks again for your help

 

Cheers

 

John

[BIGREDONE]

I have a repro "Nationl Registration card for under sixteens year", I got this from a military museum (HMS Belfast I think) for about 50p most museums sell these along with repro clothing and rationing books nowdays, phone up Bovvy or the D-Day museum Southsea. I recently purchased a 37 pat BD (for the larger man) and the going rate I found was £180 so not cheap.

 

Ill have a look at my documents scans and see what I have, ill let you know.

 

Again check out the sales section on the reenactors site.

 

Paul

[woa2]

Have you tried the Nothe Fort in Weymouth? They sell repro ration books and ID packs in their shop.

[comet]

Hi depending on your budget you could try replicaters.com they will make a uniform to your measurments, i have heared good reports about them.

[ford 369]

Hi depending on your budget you could try replicaters.com they will make a uniform to your measurments, i have heared good reports about them.

 

replicators can do some very good well priced kit but they can also produce items of dubious quality and colour and the service has been commented on quite a lot on the reenactors forum,I have had no dealings with them myself but would suggest searching fo feedback about them before placing any orders.For todays sizes repro is probably your best option although you could try post war Canadian greek or Belgian

[bodvoc]

WOW! Thanks everyone..

 

This is really a great site, and I am learning a lot on here.. And I didn't expect so many hints or pointers

 

As for shop brought repro Ration Books and the like, are they really good enough to use? I got given a couple that came from the RM museum in Portsmouth, and though copies of the real thing, look incredibly fake? Recently at RAF Colin Dean's Museum, I saw re-enactors with all the paperwork you can imagine that looked better but were repros. One chap I spoke to said they were copies of the real thing done via an art package on the PC using craft paper to print them on.

 

I have heard a lot of bad things about Replicators and I also hear Sutlers UK have closed down? But think a tailor made cossie will be way out of my pocket money range, as is the real thing when (if) I do find in my size. Last one I found in York was £300 just for the jacket and £140 for the trousers!!! the seller supplies the TV and Film trade, so I guess his prices match their demands.

 

However, just brought today a mint pair of mid 1940s Ammo Boots, for £15 at a local Army Surplus shop . He also has a webbing set, with backpack and ammo pouches, but all needs a dam good clean and also some of it has very rough blanko on, but the set is only £20 ??

 

Someone has mentioned about the pat 37 serge BD that the Canadians wore, and often used by UK Officers, as it was more comfy, but a pale/different green? I am guessing that is what Capt. Mainwaring wore in Dad’s Army?? Or was that just a TV mistake? From real HG pics I have seen, the Officers seem to wear the same as the rest of the unit, just different belt, a proper cap not a side cap and side arm (no webbing or pack accept the gas mask?).

 

Anyway, I think I have been beaten on the PAT37 gear, so I have been trying to source a 1940s bark blue boiler/siren suit, as per the ARP, but can even find a later version to mod or a pattern to make one from scratch, shame as I am handy with a sowing machine lol!

 

Cheer everyone

 

John

 

PS

I have been a historical re-enactor for some years now, doing Mid/Late Medieval, Tudor and Victorian periods.

 

The kit I have for WWII so far is:

MkII Bren (Circa 1942 - ex Canadian Army , based at Blandford)

MkIII Lee Enfield (I think Circa 1940 - ex RAF Hamworthy)

MKII Webbley Officers Side Arm (history unknown)

1944 Ammo Boots

1950s Blacksmiths kit (currently using to play HG member, basically its just a Wool 1940s/1950 suit, collarless shirt, button braces and boots and a homemade/repro Home Guard arm band), but it's OK for now.

All weapons are de-acts but can fire blank caps (via a switch and only as a single shot).

Edited September 30, 2010 by bodvoc

[woa2]

Someone has mentioned about the pat 37 serge BD that the Canadians wore, and often used by UK Officers, as it was more comfy, but a pale/different green? I am guessing that is what Capt. Mainwaring wore in Dad’s Army?? Or was that just a TV mistake?

 

Yes, Capt Mainwaring wore a Canadian made BD with the rest of the platoon in British. The colour is slightly more green and the Buttons are a totally different design. Also, British BD had white calico label for size/manufacturer bit Canadian BD had this info just stamped on in ink.

[bodvoc]

Hi woa2,

 

So could I wear this for HG? or would that be a "Major Faux pas" lol?

 

I have found one £80 + P&P, dated 1943 new/unissued and plain buttons (they say plastic/Bakerlite) but no ensigna ever been on it.. Only prob is, it is Greece!!! They also have the Cap another £80? Webbing belt, webbing holster and lanyard £40?

 

Unform and webbing sounds OK, cap sounds pricey?

 

Cheers

 

John

[BIGREDONE]

Dont forget If you are purchasing from abroad you might get stung by customs and that could put a few more pounds on your purchase.

 

Paul

Edited September 30, 2010 by BIGREDONE

[ajmac]

Weapons:

If you want the correct HG issue weapons ref the following list, however remember that times were in flux, with weapons issued and then later withdrawn etc...The weapons issued also varied notably from region to region around the country.

 

P14 BA Rifle .303

P17 BA Rifle .300 (with red painted band just behind the for strap clamp)

Early Thompson with pistol grip and Cutts

Ross Rifle .303

SMLE, not all that common and IIRC withdrawn as P14 / P17 came into use

Sten Mk2, in the last year

Lewis LMG

BAR

[BIGREDONE]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/National-Registration-Identity-Card-1945-FREE-FAST-POST-/400157439195?pt=UK_Collectables_Paper_RL&hash=item5d2b3df4db

 

13 hrs to go but plenty on there, do an advanced search and and click "completed" check for price gained some unsold and the most expensive originals about £4

 

Good luck

 

Paul

[BIGREDONE]

Hi woa2,

 

I have found one £80 + P&P, dated 1943 new/unissued and plain buttons (they say plastic/Bakerlite) but no ensigna ever been on it.. Only prob is, it is Greece!!! They also have the Cap another £80? Webbing belt, webbing holster and lanyard £40?

 

Unform and webbing sounds OK, cap sounds pricey?

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

If your looking at paying £80 for a blouse you might as well buy repro from this country, just in case the greece one dosent fit...try http://www.khakidevil.co.uk/ I have heard good news, but again around the £180 mark for a full set. My strong advice is, if you can get yourself along to the next Malvern fair, you can do the deals, there is also a Belguim dealer Quartermaster BE who aslo sells the 37 Pat BD's

[LeeEnfield]

WOW! Thanks everyone..

 

This is really a great site, and I am learning a lot on here.. And I didn't expect so many hints or pointers

 

As for shop brought repro Ration Books and the like, are they really good enough to use? I got given a couple that came from the RM museum in Portsmouth, and though copies of the real thing, look incredibly fake? Recently at RAF Colin Dean's Museum, I saw re-enactors with all the paperwork you can imagine that looked better but were repros. One chap I spoke to said they were copies of the real thing done via an art package on the PC using craft paper to print them on.

 

I have heard a lot of bad things about Replicators and I also hear Sutlers UK have closed down? But think a tailor made cossie will be way out of my pocket money range, as is the real thing when (if) I do find in my size. Last one I found in York was £300 just for the jacket and £140 for the trousers!!! the seller supplies the TV and Film trade, so I guess his prices match their demands.

 

However, just brought today a mint pair of mid 1940s Ammo Boots, for £15 at a local Army Surplus shop . He also has a webbing set, with backpack and ammo pouches, but all needs a dam good clean and also some of it has very rough blanko on, but the set is only £20 ??

 

Someone has mentioned about the pat 37 serge BD that the Canadians wore, and often used by UK Officers, as it was more comfy, but a pale/different green? I am guessing that is what Capt. Mainwaring wore in Dad’s Army?? Or was that just a TV mistake? From real HG pics I have seen, the Officers seem to wear the same as the rest of the unit, just different belt, a proper cap not a side cap and side arm (no webbing or pack accept the gas mask?).

 

Anyway, I think I have been beaten on the PAT37 gear, so I have been trying to source a 1940s bark blue boiler/siren suit, as per the ARP, but can even find a later version to mod or a pattern to make one from scratch, shame as I am handy with a sowing machine lol!

 

Cheer everyone

 

John

 

PS

I have been a historical re-enactor for some years now, doing Mid/Late Medieval, Tudor and Victorian periods.

 

The kit I have for WWII so far is:

MkII Bren (Circa 1942 - ex Canadian Army , based at Blandford)

MkIII Lee Enfield (I think Circa 1940 - ex RAF Hamworthy)

MKII Webbley Officers Side Arm (history unknown)

1944 Ammo Boots

1950s Blacksmiths kit (currently using to play HG member, basically its just a Wool 1940s/1950 suit, collarless shirt, button braces and boots and a homemade/repro Home Guard arm band), but it's OK for now.

All weapons are de-acts but can fire blank rounds (only in single shot form).

 

 

 

Umm, John,..........last line of your reply,.@'all weapons are de-acts but can fire blank rounds (only in single shot form)';.........Sorry, mate, this does not make them De-act, in the true letter of the law..........(a de-act, depending on when it was deactivated whilst on the older ones in some cases can chamber rounds, the later spec ones cannot,......and none of them are able to fire said round, blank or no. It makes them blank firers, and in the case of the lee Enfield, quite poss still live firer...............:shocked: (hope you've got the correct licence to own it)

 

 

Not wishing to kurb your enthusiasm, but as a mil vehicle owner involved in living history events, and a re-enactor, as you can inagine, with the various prospective/talked about legislation simmering about, we tend to be careful about such things. :-)

 

Andy

[BIGREDONE]

Umm, John,..........last line of your reply,.@'all weapons are de-acts but can fire blank rounds (only in single shot form)';.........Sorry, mate, this does not make them De-act, in the true letter of the law..........(a de-act, depending on when it was deactivated whilst on the older ones in some cases can chamber rounds, the later spec ones cannot,......and none of them are able to fire said round, blank or no. It makes them blank firers, and in the case of the lee Enfield, quite poss still live firer...............:shocked: (hope you've got the correct licence to own it)

 

 

Not wishing to kurb your enthusiasm, but as a mil vehicle owner involved in living history events, and a re-enactor, as you can inagine, with the various prospective/talked about legislation simmering about, we tend to be careful about such things. :-)

 

Andy

 

Andy,

 

Yes I also did a quick in take of breath, that is just what I thought but was not 100% sure so did not post, but thank you for posting. John please make sure you have the correct coverage.

 

Paul

[LeeEnfield]

Cheers for that Paul,..........not just me, then.

 

Difficult not to appear as a 'party pooper',.........but hey. :-)

 

All the best, see you in a field somewhere in 2011. (or even xmas leave this year)

 

Andy

[bodvoc]

Umm, John,..........last line of your reply,.@'all weapons are de-acts but can fire blank rounds (only in single shot form)';.........Sorry, mate, this does not make them De-act, in the true letter of the law..........(a de-act, depending on when it was deactivated whilst on the older ones in some cases can chamber rounds, the later spec ones cannot,......and none of them are able to fire said round, blank or no. It makes them blank firers, and in the case of the lee Enfield, quite poss still live firer...............:shocked: (hope you've got the correct licence to own it)

 

 

Not wishing to kurb your enthusiasm, but as a mil vehicle owner involved in living history events, and a re-enactor, as you can inagine, with the various prospective/talked about legislation simmering about, we tend to be careful about such things. :-)

 

Andy

 

Hi LeeEnfield and BIGREDONE

 

Opps! OK wrong wordage by me.. sorry :blush:

 

They only fire a cap, hence single shot (really a type of pryro, just a loud version of a kids toy cap gun really). The conversion was done by the previous owner, (a hardcore reenactor and TV historian and used in some of the progs he helped in). I have had them professionally checked out when I brought them and they do meet the de-act regs and were again certed then. I have never been brave enough to fire them anyway, (don't even know where to get the caps from) even though I have a Shotgun and blackpower licence for a Brown Bess I also own (again, never fired by me lol) and now also fixed to be no more than a wall hanger as I never did get into English Civil War reenactment .

 

But thanks for the nodd.. Cheers John

Edited October 1, 2010 by bodvoc

[LeeEnfield]

Thanks John, for clarifying those points.

 

I guessed looking at your 'other period', interests you may well hold black powder licence.

Brown Bess,.........Very,very Nice.

 

If your on the look out for repro uniform, I'd recomend Khaki Devil. 37 patt B/dress @ £190

..and yes, I have got a set myself, (to keep my two canadian 40's dated uniforms unmarked)

Other way to go is SOF,...similar price, I believe. OR have a look on Ebay for GREEK b/dress,......some of which is very 'canadian', in colour.

 

All the best,

Andy

[bodvoc]

Hi Andy,

Yeah been around a few fields of honour, dress in everything from Medieval to Victorian. Have fired a few fun things to, even a English Civil War cannon, but something that old, well the old nerves go lol.

Funny, I am checking out Khaki Devils right now.. Looks a good option but will also have agander for the Greek BD to

Cheers for all the advice, it is good to meet people that know their stuff

Cheers

John

[LeeEnfield]

Hi Andy,

 

Yeah been around a few fields of honour, dress in everything from Medieval to Victorian. Have fired a few fun things to, even a English Civil War cannon, but something that old, well the old nerves go lol.

 

Funny, I am checking out Khaki Devils right now.. Looks a good option but will also have agander for the Greek BD to

 

Cheers for all the advice, it is good to meet people that know their stuff

 

Cheers

 

John

 

No worries, John.

these hobbies tend to bring out the best (and at times the worst) in folk.

The folk at Khaki Devil are great,.........very passionate about what they do.

 

All the best

 

Andy

[bodvoc]

Hi Andy,

 

Didn't have much luck with the Greek suff, but have made contact with Khaki Devil regarding a HG uniform fingers crossed they can help.

 

Not sure what you meant by SOF, in the house it means Solider of Fortune, thanks to the kids and the Playstation lol

 

One our team has gone French Resistance (but he speak fulent French!). :cool2:

 

Open question. Back to ARP again, sorry. I got my hands on a copy of an picture of an ARP wearing what looks like a 1930s Policemans uniform? A tunic with a high collar (Mandarin style, no lapels), single breasted, two breast pockets, belt and to hip pockets.

 

You can quiet clearly see the ARP badge and buttons. It is dated on the back by the chemist (Boots) that printed it as may 4th 1941 and shows the wearer sat outside the Customs House at Poole, as if on duty. Do you think this was just a war effort wear what you have, or did they use "old" police uniforms before the Boiler suit came in?

 

Cheers

 

John

[LeeEnfield]

Hi Andy,

 

Didn't have much luck with the Greek suff, but have made contact with Khaki Devil regarding a HG uniform fingers crossed they can help.

 

Not sure what you meant by SOF, in the house it means Solider of Fortune, thanks to the kids and the Playstation lol

 

One our team has gone French Resistance (but he speak fulent French!). :cool2:

 

Open question. Back to ARP again, sorry. I got my hands on a copy of an picture of an ARP wearing what looks like a 1930s Policemans uniform? A tunic with a high collar (Mandarin style, no lapels), single breasted, two breast pockets, belt and to hip pockets.

 

You can quiet clearly see the ARP badge and buttons. It is dated on the back by the chemist (Boots) that printed it as may 4th 1941 and shows the wearer sat outside the Customs House at Poole, as if on duty. Do you think this was just a war effort wear what you have, or did they use "old" police uniforms before the Boiler suit came in?

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

Hi John,

SOF = yup soldier of fortune, (sorry)

 

Can't help you with ARP kit,..........don't know enough about it to answer correctly BUT, if you get yourself along to wwiireenacting.co.uk and join the forum, amoungst the headings is one on civilian life and homefront. I'm more than guessing one of the knowlegable folk on there will be able to answer your enquiries,.........and correctly at that. :-D

 

All the best,

Andy

[bodvoc]

SOF = yup soldier of fortune, (sorry)

 

 

Hi Andy,

 

Thanks again

 

Not sure I could carry off the soldier of fortune bit, getting a bit old me, and don't have the hair to be Rambo either lol.. So HG/ARP a better option, and will go for a look somewhere between Corp. Jones, Sgt. Wilson and Capt. Mainwaring (or Hodges "Put that light OUT!" hahahaha)

 

I have done some checking around, and spend the day in the local Museum and found out it was actually a Fireman's tunic and trousers (very simular to the Police Uniform of the time). Some wore as it was with arm band and ARP hat, some had ARP buttons etc.. I may of just been a local thing to Poole, I don't know about that. But it looks the part and is another option for a costume if anyone like us is looking, and I have copies of photographs now of 5 different people (and a group photo) wearing them during 1940 to 1944.

 

One bit of interesting info, the Firemans tunic remained pretty much unchanged till the mid/late 50s, though probably just as rare as Patt 37/Patt 40 stuff as not that many were made/issued :-(

 

We now have 5 of the 7 1940s costumes needed. Thanks to local army surplus, a very friendly fancy dress shop selling of some vintage clothes and a few very generous gifts from local people and from sites like this. We have:

 

2 Land Army girls.

1 French Resistance (male).

1 RAF Pilot (Dress Uniform)

1 Royal Marine

1 Dorest Yeoman costume

 

We also have a couple of spare RAF uniforms, including a full Pilots outfit, but are to small for any off us to wear :cry: but will keep just in case we get a thinner chap join us as guides. It's just mine and the coach drivers to sort out, and it looks like Khaki Devils will be our only option there. (we are both big lads with 48" chests, not 1940 skinnies lol).

 

Thanks again for your help and advice & all the best

 

John