bodvoc

Thanks for your answer Runflat, I think I may have tried that site already, and ended up directed to a "pay to see" site through the various links. But will have another shot at it. Thank again Bodders

Hi all, Maybe a stupid question, but hopefully not that stupid I am looking for a site where I can research ww2 military records for UK servicemen/women, without having to pay £3 - £10 atime, to see something that may or may not actually be related to my actual search. I have tried quiet a few, but they all want money as soon as it starts getting interesting, and then offer no more than what I already know.... Any ideas? is there such a thing as a fee research site for this? I need to search all Army, Navy and RAF records, on hopefully one site.... A tall order I guess :-( Cheers Bodders

Hi Unionjack, I finally got hold of him, and he is going to post me copies of the pics (he doesn't know how to use the scanner he has). My guess would be, the more pleats the less likely it is to be from War Years (1939-45), as fabric was short supply. Tailors "Artistic license" would be more freely used when rationing wasn't in force. I have seen several versions of the same Patt BD, made by different firms but all exactly the same cut.. though by this I can't rule out a rouge Tailor knocking out something near enough or doing personal mods to the BD. Cheers John

Hi Unionjack, Yep, he had several pics of people wearing these open neck blouse, One was dated by by Kodak on the back as June 9th, 1953. The others showed cars of the mid 50s in the background or something else date-able. The best picture is the dated pic, it was of a factory named WALESTA, in Cracow, Poland, with people wearing the BD (both male and Female, maybe the staff?). Maybe made under license there like some of our Tanks were in WW2? I will contact him and try and get scans of the pictures and post here It is a rough serge, but not as rough as your pan scourer trousers , maybe just the age or wear that has made it softer though? Very thick to the feel about 3 to 4mm thick on the plush of the weave... All my lable says is "Utility Battle Dress", no mention of Civil Defence or anything, hence all the confussion early on lol. That blouse does look VERY, very simular to what I have here, especailly the buttons, though the fabric looks more wooly than what I have, not so many pleats to the waistband (mine has only three, one, a three fold pleat on the back and one dart style, on each side by the arm/sleves, the ebay one looks to have 5 pleats/darts) and that one on ebay is a dirtier blue? Mine is more very dark Navy, nearly black? (like a Police uniform). Cheers John

Yep Mark, you were dead right, should of listened to you A fellow re-enactor and military costume historian gave the final nod, and also backed it up with pictures and details of it's manufactor in Poland. Cheers John

Hi All, Can anyone help please? I need either good pictures or scans of the coupon pages from a 1942-43 Clothing Ration Book. I have an original book, but sadly all the 4 coupon pages are missing (torn out). Even scans or pics of part pages will be OK. This is for a school project, "The 2nd World War - Early Years/on the Home Front", and I am desperate for these pages :-( Many thanks for reading John

I have eventually found out what this tunic is, it is a ... 1949 PATTERN (made 1967) BATTLEDRESS BLOUSE - CIVAL DEFENCE USED IN THE COLD WAR ERA. After weeks of hunting and searching as to it's origin and date, a chance meeting with a fellow re-enactor and costume historian who, drummed up pictures and patterns for the exact same articale, blooming typical eh! lol But that's it solved at last ;o) Thanks to all those that helped out along the way. John

Hi Unionjack, Thanks for the input Only the trousers have CC41 on a lable inside them, the jacket just has that lable saying Utility Battle Dress etc. Yes, I agree that everything doesn't add up, and I feel it is a fake or a repro made to look older, the biggest clue to me are the pockets and collar style. I have found several refferences to the lable inside the ARP jackets, and they all clearly say "Battle Dress Blouse A.R.P." with a number or pattern. It was only the buttons they said were made up until the 60s. The clothes were made up till early 50s, or so they told me??? Anyhow, I am of the opion that it was a inaccurate version of a reenactors or maybe a stage/film costume and the patches (that were on it, now long removed would of maybe shown, hence they were removed or were more valuable than the costume). I feel the newspaper it was packed with and suit case were all no more than props left over from some event or filming :-(, just packed up with TLC as a memoire by the previous owner, who knows... Just my guess... As it stands, and I think as the fabric is correct, I may retailor it to be correct, or just sell it on as an old stage military costume. All in all, as none of the museums could accurately place it, I think it is case closed rather than waste any more peoples time. Cheers John

Hi again guys, Thank you all for your input You all have been a great help in adding to finding out what this uniform is. I recently spent the day at Portsmouth, at the Navy Dock Yard museums there, and after chatting to one of the historians, can safely say its not RN design (in his words more Army than Navy). I also went to the Royal Marines museum at Southsea, they had something similar (except again in cloth, colour and the pockets design), and they also said it wasn't known to be one of theirs either. The CC41 does mean it is a 1941 Gov pattern issue/directive, both sites confirm this, and could of been made as late as the mid 1960s. The cloth patch is military/Goverment issue (may be to ARP/Fire Guards /Street Fire Patrol?? they couldn't say for sure) but being blue could be discounted for regular Police Force or Fire brigade ... Or so I am told by these two historians???. One historian thought it could be POW emergency clothing, but also put doubt on Prison clothing because of the military stamp on the patch? (the upwards Arrow). The other historian disagreed with that and felt that convicts would of worn their normal clothes or a demin two piece or one piece boiler suit or dungerees? Depending on there crime, the jail and lenght of jail sentence, and that went for even millitary prisoners (POW etc.)?? They both believed the trousers and the jacket were not part of the same uniform, even though there were the same fabric? they felt the Jacket was very early 1940s, and the rubber stamp mark the issue year date... (he felt it said 1943) but the trousers were more like civilian trousers of the mid to late 1940s/possibly early 1950s? and may of been replacements? This was due the turn-ups, stitched, waxed and pressed in and as they said, more a tailor style of the 1948-1955 era. The buttons they both believed to be standard issue, but made from 1920 to 1960. From a pattern book, he showed me sketches of BD uniforms, from the pleats, pockets, epaulets and collar/cuffs match a 1939 design made up until 1955, however the title of this was just "Utility Battle Dress", but just like the label on the jacket, no services use mentioned. Fabrics available serge, demin & cloth (May be Linen?), colours Navy, Blue/Grey, Black, Sand( May be Buff?) and Khaki, meets CC41 and Ministry Dress Patten 39. It is to faint to see but the date reads 194 and either a 1, 3, 5 or 7... It's just to smudged/worn to read... On my last tour with the guys we support, I took it to the Royal Air Force Museum at Cosford, the top guy there couldn't identify it either, but said it looked more Naval than RAF, here we go again back to the start :cry: The only real connection that is left is the London one. May be a coincidence, it being packed up with the London Herald but, all I have to go on now. Does anyone know or have pictures of the London ARP or SFP uniforms (1940 onwards?). The plot thickens and still no further forward lol.. Thanks all Cheers John PS the pic below is an ARP of 1944, but note the pockets are again different from the jacket I have found... :-(

Hi Andy, I would say the trousers are more Patt 39 than Patt 40 (no field dressing pocket), the turn-ups may of been a personal mod, as for the Jacket PATT no idea?? Spent the afternoon at the local Uni, a friend there is a costume historian and this is what we have turned up so far... Its not RNVS, its the right colour but the cut is all wrong (the buttons are showing on the breast opening, no pleats on waistband, belt buttoned not buckled.) Fabric is close though. Its not RN, its the wrong colour, so is fabric, again wrong cut on the buttons, no pleats on waistband. It's far to pale to be RAF.. and the collar is wrong (to high)... and pocket flaps wrong and still no pleats. This is the closes RAAF BD, right on the cut (well ish), but colours wrong?? Far to Blue and more cotton than wool fabric (like the cheap jeans or old style boiler suits). The last thing I found out is that according to records we found, the London Volunteer Firemen (and women) wore Tunics or Boilersuits not BD and they were black not Dark/Navy Blue. At the risk of dressing up as a common criminal I might just buy anyway, 'cos I am sure some smart arse at an event will tell me what uniform it is lol.. Cheers John

Hi Guys.. I have lightened the picture only so you could see the detail, as it is a very, very dark blue. The trousers are slightly lighter, I guess from being cleaned more often? Stitched in the leg seem is a tag, it only says CC41? The buttoms are the thing that confuse me, I would say they are bakelite, as they pass the bakelite test. Below is a picture of the spare button that was stitched into the jackets side seem. (With the exception of one replacement button, what looks like an old coat button) all the buttons are the same, but there are two sizes and apart from a few that have been re-stitched on, most look to be as original as the day of making so should mean 1930s / early 1940s? Bakelite buttons were produced until about 1930 when other plastics took over?? (ref: http://www.anthro.utah.edu/IMACs/475-Buttons.pdf) The jacket is unlined, so may of been worn with a shirt (and tie?), if that helps anyone? The seller says it came from a house clearance and was packed up with a cap (sold off seperately by mistake and he can't remember what style it was). It was wrapped up with moth balls (and it still smells of them), in brown paper and also a newspaper (The London Herald) dated Thurs 8th march, 1951 and in a suit case (like a childs evacuees). He still has these items and he seems genuine about its history on its arriving to him. (He claims it was recieved minus the ensignia/patches, and they must of been removed a long time ago, possible before it was put into storage?). So I am still leaning to the 1940s date (as the third digit of the year is either a 4 or a 9, unless its a very good repro from the 1990s and would it of had bakelite buttons? and would someone go to the lengths of packing it up to look older?) It is a shame that the date stamp is smudged and worn, and the ensigna is missing, so it remains a mystery to me what it was used for, the seller thinks it's a 1940s ARP/London Fire Brigade Volunteer/Civil Defence Warden, I just don't know for sure... Still hunting for picture refs of something like it.. :cry: hahahahaha As a guy trying to give up smoking, I will probably do that outside the club house screaming "put that light" to all those still smoking (or I might just be begging for a fag depending on what sort of day I have had) hahahaha Cheers all John

Hi Chevpol, Thanks for a quick anwer, I only just posted Yeah, that was my guess, but didn't want to put my neck on the line lol. If it really is a ARP/Civil Defence Blouse, then my prayers have been answered on a cheap costum option :wow: I'll better wait and see if our thoughts are confirmed by a few others before I buy Cheers John

Thanks again guys, Didn't win the Lotto, so it will be overtime for a few weeks to pay for it all I am on the hunt now for a Tin Helmet, just waiting a few that are on Ebay and hoping that they won't go mad on the bidding :sweat: Got pretty much all I need to start off the tours, as a badly equiped HG lol :blush: Cheers for the advice, much needed and appreciated :thanx: Cheers John

Hi everyone, I have found this uniform, it has no makers mark but has a patch that reads. Utility BD. Size 15 (with the sizes for Breast & Waist) and an arrow (pointing up), and a rubber stamp mark that looks like a date but is so smudged/worn you can not read it... may be 194* or may be 199* It also has a pair of trousers (matching) with slit pockets, button flies and buttons for braces and pressed turn-ups (but no size or maker or date marks). All buttons are a plastic type. It feels and looks like a cheap wool demin mix and is a very dark blue or dark navy (almost black) in colour. There signs of shoulder titles being on the top of the sleeves and also a patch (as it is slightly faded and cotton threads where they were). Any ideas what it is? Cheers all John

Hi Andy Yeah, I am thinking the same thing, just have to drag up the dosh from somewhere to get it :cry:. Just brought a lotto ticket lol you never know :saluting: Cheers John

Hi Andy, Yeah you got it right there! I know I am a good build ('cos of going to the gym since I was 21yrs old), and both my sons are 6footers and have inherited my broad shoulders . I can only seem to find Majors' uniforms to fit me :blush:, no matter what service or country lol . Must of been all that Port and Cheese after the 5 course dinners they had lol. Even if I starve for a month, I’ll still measure 22” across the shoulders :shocked: SOF have some good repro and original stuff, trouble is I got to nearly £500 with my wish list and I think the wife would leave me if I spent that much (in one go) :-\ ! Been out today to an old RAF site in Hampshire, and found loads of stuff in 2nd hand shops, but oh-boy the prices were more like telephone numbers :-(. I am guessin the RAF uniforms are even more expensive and rare now. As you can guess I am starting to panic now, cost and lead-time for repro Vs cost and availability of original stuff. So I am hitting every 2nd hand shop in a 40mile area. Did get some 1930s glasses, just have to get them re-glazed with my prescription and I have another bit of kit. Cheers John

Hi Andy, Yep they are both dated 1942 and 1944. However they are very small size. The clothing patch on one of the jackets says, Size 4, Height 5'2"/ 5'4" Breast 28/30", waist 26/28", made by Benjamin Simons & Sons, Leeds (that's what it looks like anyway, it not clear) and there is an Arrow and stamped in ink JAN 1942. A label on the waistband of the trousers say Size 3, 24/28" seat 30/32", Leg 29. The other jacket just has a stamp mark on it, the date 1944 and also Size 4 can be seen but anything else is worn so you cannot read. They only just fit my mate’s son, an average build 18yr old. One is a No.2 Dress Uniform, but other is a heavier wool/cotton like demin pilots BD and trousers with flying helmet & mask, gloves and 1941 Pattern Mae-west, and also a coverall/boiler suit and a sheepskin flying jacket. There is one pair of black Brogues and one pair of shin-high lined boots both size 6 &1/2. There is one side cap, one peeked cap 6 & 5/8, and one Dress Cap. All with rank, medal bar and unit insignia and even a bus ticket for 1s 3d for his journey home to Poole, dated 16th Feb 1944 was in the pocket! The chap that gave them to us (a Flt Lt) was stationed at RAF Chickerell, Dorset. He was just 18 when he joined the RAF and served till his was retired off. We are Hoping to lend them to the local museum for permanent display, as even if they fitted, are really to good to be worn for the tours and should be preserved and seen by others. Cheers John

Hi Andy, Thanks again Not sure I could carry off the soldier of fortune bit, getting a bit old me, and don't have the hair to be Rambo either lol.. So HG/ARP a better option, and will go for a look somewhere between Corp. Jones, Sgt. Wilson and Capt. Mainwaring (or Hodges "Put that light OUT!" hahahaha) I have done some checking around, and spend the day in the local Museum and found out it was actually a Fireman's tunic and trousers (very simular to the Police Uniform of the time). Some wore as it was with arm band and ARP hat, some had ARP buttons etc.. I may of just been a local thing to Poole, I don't know about that. But it looks the part and is another option for a costume if anyone like us is looking, and I have copies of photographs now of 5 different people (and a group photo) wearing them during 1940 to 1944. One bit of interesting info, the Firemans tunic remained pretty much unchanged till the mid/late 50s, though probably just as rare as Patt 37/Patt 40 stuff as not that many were made/issued :-( We now have 5 of the 7 1940s costumes needed. Thanks to local army surplus, a very friendly fancy dress shop selling of some vintage clothes and a few very generous gifts from local people and from sites like this. We have: 2 Land Army girls. 1 French Resistance (male). 1 RAF Pilot (Dress Uniform) 1 Royal Marine 1 Dorest Yeoman costume We also have a couple of spare RAF uniforms, including a full Pilots outfit, but are to small for any off us to wear :cry: but will keep just in case we get a thinner chap join us as guides. It's just mine and the coach drivers to sort out, and it looks like Khaki Devils will be our only option there. (we are both big lads with 48" chests, not 1940 skinnies lol). Thanks again for your help and advice & all the best John

Hi Andy, Didn't have much luck with the Greek suff, but have made contact with Khaki Devil regarding a HG uniform fingers crossed they can help. Not sure what you meant by SOF, in the house it means Solider of Fortune, thanks to the kids and the Playstation lol One our team has gone French Resistance (but he speak fulent French!). :cool2: Open question. Back to ARP again, sorry. I got my hands on a copy of an picture of an ARP wearing what looks like a 1930s Policemans uniform? A tunic with a high collar (Mandarin style, no lapels), single breasted, two breast pockets, belt and to hip pockets. You can quiet clearly see the ARP badge and buttons. It is dated on the back by the chemist (Boots) that printed it as may 4th 1941 and shows the wearer sat outside the Customs House at Poole, as if on duty. Do you think this was just a war effort wear what you have, or did they use "old" police uniforms before the Boiler suit came in? Cheers John

Hi Andy, Yeah been around a few fields of honour, dress in everything from Medieval to Victorian. Have fired a few fun things to, even a English Civil War cannon, but something that old, well the old nerves go lol. Funny, I am checking out Khaki Devils right now.. Looks a good option but will also have agander for the Greek BD to Cheers for all the advice, it is good to meet people that know their stuff Cheers John

Hi LeeEnfield and BIGREDONE Opps! OK wrong wordage by me.. sorry :blush: They only fire a cap, hence single shot (really a type of pryro, just a loud version of a kids toy cap gun really). The conversion was done by the previous owner, (a hardcore reenactor and TV historian and used in some of the progs he helped in). I have had them professionally checked out when I brought them and they do meet the de-act regs and were again certed then. I have never been brave enough to fire them anyway, (don't even know where to get the caps from) even though I have a Shotgun and blackpower licence for a Brown Bess I also own (again, never fired by me lol) and now also fixed to be no more than a wall hanger as I never did get into English Civil War reenactment . But thanks for the nodd.. Cheers John

Hi woa2, So could I wear this for HG? or would that be a "Major Faux pas" lol? I have found one £80 + P&P, dated 1943 new/unissued and plain buttons (they say plastic/Bakerlite) but no ensigna ever been on it.. Only prob is, it is Greece!!! They also have the Cap another £80? Webbing belt, webbing holster and lanyard £40? Unform and webbing sounds OK, cap sounds pricey? Cheers John

WOW! Thanks everyone.. This is really a great site, and I am learning a lot on here.. And I didn't expect so many hints or pointers As for shop brought repro Ration Books and the like, are they really good enough to use? I got given a couple that came from the RM museum in Portsmouth, and though copies of the real thing, look incredibly fake? Recently at RAF Colin Dean's Museum, I saw re-enactors with all the paperwork you can imagine that looked better but were repros. One chap I spoke to said they were copies of the real thing done via an art package on the PC using craft paper to print them on. I have heard a lot of bad things about Replicators and I also hear Sutlers UK have closed down? But think a tailor made cossie will be way out of my pocket money range, as is the real thing when (if) I do find in my size. Last one I found in York was £300 just for the jacket and £140 for the trousers!!! the seller supplies the TV and Film trade, so I guess his prices match their demands. However, just brought today a mint pair of mid 1940s Ammo Boots, for £15 at a local Army Surplus shop . He also has a webbing set, with backpack and ammo pouches, but all needs a dam good clean and also some of it has very rough blanko on, but the set is only £20 ?? Someone has mentioned about the pat 37 serge BD that the Canadians wore, and often used by UK Officers, as it was more comfy, but a pale/different green? I am guessing that is what Capt. Mainwaring wore in Dad’s Army?? Or was that just a TV mistake? From real HG pics I have seen, the Officers seem to wear the same as the rest of the unit, just different belt, a proper cap not a side cap and side arm (no webbing or pack accept the gas mask?). Anyway, I think I have been beaten on the PAT37 gear, so I have been trying to source a 1940s bark blue boiler/siren suit, as per the ARP, but can even find a later version to mod or a pattern to make one from scratch, shame as I am handy with a sowing machine lol! Cheer everyone John PS I have been a historical re-enactor for some years now, doing Mid/Late Medieval, Tudor and Victorian periods. The kit I have for WWII so far is: MkII Bren (Circa 1942 - ex Canadian Army , based at Blandford) MkIII Lee Enfield (I think Circa 1940 - ex RAF Hamworthy) MKII Webbley Officers Side Arm (history unknown) 1944 Ammo Boots 1950s Blacksmiths kit (currently using to play HG member, basically its just a Wool 1940s/1950 suit, collarless shirt, button braces and boots and a homemade/repro Home Guard arm band), but it's OK for now. All weapons are de-acts but can fire blank caps (via a switch and only as a single shot).

Hi Bigredone & Ajmac, Thanks for the pointers and advice. Already tried Sabre, he had no uniforms that would fit me :blush:, just to broader shoulders lol.. Though he has the webbing/gas mask etc that would do. So I may have to opt for a a 1930s suit with odd bits to make a "homely" home guard :cry: but would of prefered pat 37 serge BD.. so not to look like something out of the early Dad's Army show. The Poole (Dorset) HG were a pretty under equipped bunch, scrounging/trading a lot of stuff off the local RAF & RNAS units in the early days, so I have a bit of leyway there (I hope lol) I have just been promised a real ration book, petrol and tobacco coupons to make repros from (good old photoshop ). Just need a real National ID card and I am sorted there.. Thanks again for your help Cheers John

First of all Hi All, can anyone please help me? I am John and I am a volunteer support worker working with the disabled and learning difficulty/mental illness persons aging from young adults to pensioners (some of which are ex-service men), all with a passionate interest in history, especially WWI & WWII. I organise tours of museums and historical sites and dressed in period clothing (and as part of a local “Bring History to life” scheme), I (with others) then give a full tour and historically accurate account of what is being seen. However I desperately need a WWII Home Guard uniform (or regular soldiers or ARP or a RAF Pilots uniform) , as well as any accessories or memorabilia to create the part of this interactive tours starting next month (mid Oct). Costume size would need to fit a chunky male 5’8”, Chest 48” waist 40” Leg 30” and has to be wearable and in fair to good condition. Things like Ration Books, gas mask, webbing, caps/hats/helmets and belts etc are also needed to complete the uniforms. I do this role as a volunteer, so my funds are very limited any hints or cheap sources would be great :-D I have tried ebay and the local Army surplus but had no luck so far. Thank you for reading ;o) John