Have we to many of?

[Jack]

Ok, not wanting to kick anything off here but after reading through the Windscreen this morning and seeing the pictures from all of the shows and reading some of the area reports.....etc etc.

 

Does anyone think that the whole movement is dominanted far to much by American vehicles?

[Mark]

That's what there is Jack, they left most of the stuff behind and that's what captures people's interest I suppose :?

[ArtistsRifles]

Personal view is yes - BUT - if thats all there is/it's easier to reproduce those markings then thats how it is. At least the vehicles are preserved and thus their history for future generations.

[Jack]

But I am also thinking that we have plenty of post war vehicles of our own - don't we?

[Guest matt]

I'd put it another way Jack,there are too few British vehicles. There are several reasons for this but mainly it's because after WW2 most European countries were supplied with military equipment by the US of A. These European countries kept many WW2 vehicles in good condition and as they were sold off during the 70's,80's and 90's collectors world wide took the opportunity to buy original vehicles needing little work to be road worthy.

 

British vehicles were not supplied to any other country on a large scale but instead were sold post war to civilians who worked them to death,by the time the MV movement got underway in the 70's most had already gone,and those that remained needed a lot of effort to restore,most collectors took the easier option of buying a euro released US vehicle needing little work rather than embarking on the major restoration of a British vehicle. Add to this the fact that most British vehicles were made in far fewer numbers than those types built in the US and that is why we see so few British vehicles in preservation compared to those from the US.

 

Matt.

[ArtistsRifles]

That's nicely put Matt - probably the best summation of the situation I've heard!!

[Enigma]

Yep, that sums it up pretty good...

[Jack]

That does sum up WW2 but what about post war British vehicles?

[sirhc]

Jack,

There are plenty of us with post war vehicles, but have a look through the show listings that are produced every year. Wartime weekend here, 40's dance there etc. There are a lot of shows out there, but those of us who own something other than a jeep or a GMC are usually not invited.

 

Chris

[ArtistsRifles]

Post war too seems a bit strange - you don't see too many RL's floating about.

Most Militants are Mk 3 wreckers, again very few Mk1's in any form - and even fewer Mk2's seem to be around. Very few of anything else - Commers etc.

Same for Antars'.

MK's/MJs seem OK as do wheeled armour (Ferrets/Foxes/Saladins/Saracens etc.) from the late '50's.

Later tracked armour is also seemingly OK but not too many Conquerors and tracked vehicles of that era are around.

Landrovers are plentiful and Champs aren't too scarce.

I'm told there are 30 Stalwarts left of the 4 types made that run and swim.

 

Maybe some of it is due to Gov't disposal policies and some due to peoples lack of desire to get involved with anything heavy at that time which led to them being scrapped - I've no idea there. It is a shame though.....

 

Chris has a valid point too - Other than the W&P show the only event I can recall that wasn't focussed more on the WW2 era kit round our way was the Essex Armour & Softskin groups show at Kelvedon Hatch which was Cold War orientated.

[Mark]

Jack,

There are plenty of us with post war vehicles, but have a look through the show listings that are produced every year. Wartime weekend here, 40's dance there etc. There are a lot of shows out there, but those of us who own something other than a jeep or a GMC are usually not invited.

 

Chris

 

 

This above is where I find that the movement is "snobby", if you have not got a WW2 you can't come or you can come along but at the back and not take part in the show, or words to that effect, this I think is one of the barriers within the movement that needs to be addressed, yes I agree that there are certain occasions that are limited to WW2 vehicles, but the attitude to postwar vehicles need to be lost or there could be fractions within the clubs.

[Guest matt]

I agree that some owners of WW2 vehicles tend to look down on post war vehicles,I am to a degree guilty of this myself as to me they tend to all look rather alike,although having said that I realize that just as much work goes into restoring,for example,a 1960's Land Rover as goes into a Dodge WC etc.

 

Matt.

[Jack]

Pretty much what I have observed as well and it looks like this is the current under current of the movement.

 

I am not so sure why it is WW2 biased but I dare say the reason are very complexed, we do seem to have an infinety to that period of our countrys history which is going to be natural seeing as our fathers and grandfathers were involved and that our mothers and grandmothers played an intense role too.

 

I am still scratching my head with post war though and Chris you are right, there are plenty about, they just don't seem to enjoy the profile of WW2 vehicles but I think the above may help explain that. I too am amazed at the lack of RL's on the scene but maybe one day when we have taught post war military history in our schools they will become popular - if you can find them. A rather freightning figure on the Stalwarts and big respect goes to Neil for being part of the '30 club'.

 

One of the best sights in Dorset is Hardy Ferret when he is in Ferret with his peace keepers beret on - he stands out from everyone else.

[Enigma]

For most Dutchman ww2 vehicles are more popular because they were used to liberate us in a war we didn't choose to be in.

Since WW2 we had a war in Indonesia and participated in Korea.

Many vehicles were still WW2 vintage so the post war ones haven't got much war history to them.

[fv1609]

The public like vehicles that have been in a war. The typical response of a young male/ ciderhead at a show when I have the Hornet is:

 

"What's this second world war?"

"No it was built in 1963"

"What war it's been in? Vietnam?"

"No, I don't think we were in Vietnam"

"Well what war's it been in then?"

"It hasn't been to war, it was designed to send a strong message to Arab countries that an incursion into their neighbours would be met rapidly by an airborne response with a weapon that could destroy even the heaviest tank in the world. Indeed its purpose was to prevent what may have lead to WW3."

"Well its a load of sh*t then if it hasn't been in a war"

 

A controversal bit here (which I think Jack wants to get people debating?) but a lot of WW2 vehicles haven't "been" in a war at all. Some have survived so well because they have seen no action at all, they been in the reserve stocks of various countries. But on release they become vehicles used in D-Day, why can't a few be presented in their real colours. I would love see for instance a jeep decked out in a Greek army role.

 

Yes I know people are quite free to do as they wish with their own vehicle.

[sirhc]

Postwar vehicles were in service for a long time, Ferrets were in service for over 40 years, 432s will have been in service for over 60 years when they are finally scrapped. In this time many thousands of people will have used them, even lived in them out on exercises or in small wars and peace keeping duties. Most of them have seen much more active service than wartime vehicles, anyone who thinks they are not worth preserving obviously didn't think it through properly.

 

I have found when I've had the Ferret, Spartan or Fox at a show (or even at home when working on it) that a lot of former crewmen always like to stop and chat about them. They all have stories, I met a bloke who froze when he saw the Pig we had. He wouldn't go in it and it took him a few minutes to finally talk about it, last time he was in one it had been petrol bombed and he was on fire. Another man used Ferrets in Malaya and had photos and stories of his time out there. We put him in touch with the owner of his old Ferret.

 

I think the 1940s thing is mostly an excuse to dress up and have a party.

 

Bedford RLs do turn up on ebay quite often, but usually painted in stupid colours and full of holes. You could of course buy a RLH, Withams have hundreds of them and can't give them away!

 

http://www.witham-sv.com/vehicles/372.jpg[/img]

 

Chris

[Enigma]

The public like vehicles that have been in a war. The typical response of a young male/ ciderhead at a show when I have the Hornet is:

 

"What's this second world war?"

"No it was built in 1963"

"What war it's been in? Vietnam?"

"No, I don't think we were in Vietnam"

"Well what war's it been in then?"

"It hasn't been to war, it was designed to send a strong message to Arab countries that an incursion into their neighbours would be met rapidly by an airborne response with a weapon that could destroy even the heaviest tank in the world. Indeed its purpose was to prevent what may have lead to WW3."

"Well its a load of sh*t then if it hasn't been in a war"

 

A controversal bit here (which I think Jack wants to get people debating?) but a lot of WW2 vehicles haven't "been" in a war at all. Some have survived so well because they have seen no action at all, they been in the reserve stocks of various countries. But on release they become vehicles used in D-Day, why can't a few be presented in their real colours. I would love see for instance a jeep decked out in a Greek army role.

 

Yes I know people are quite free to do as they wish with their own vehicle.

 

 

About WW2 vehicles actually USED on the battlefields, you're right.

My WC 21 came to Europe in 1947 or 1949.

It was delivered May 1942 so most probably stayed in the US and never used in the Pacific or Europe or Africa during the war.

Unfortunately all markings were removed so I can't trace its history before shipment to Europe (Switserland) in the late 40's.

[ArtistsRifles]

I too am amazed at the lack of RL's on the scene but maybe one day when we have taught post war military history in our schools they will become popular - if you can find them. A rather freightning figure on the Stalwarts and big respect goes to Neil for being part of the '30 club'.

 

 

"Member of the 30 Club" - what do you know that I don't Jack?? :-o :-o

 

Must be honest - of all the vehicles I could choose from from WW1 onwards (& if I had the money!!) the ones on my shopping list would be:

 

1) AEC Militant Mk 1 GS

2) Bedford RL-W GS

3) Landrover S2 Airportable &/or 109" "Panther"

4) Churchill Crocodile

 

#1-3 are vehicles all all vehicles I served with/on and have a great deal of affection for.

#4 - is one that always fascinated me since I was a kid and it would be nice complete the dream. Not much chance though :-(

 

Interestingly enough the poll on this very forum entitled"What MV do you own?" has 59% being British and 20% American.....

[Enigma]

My wishlist;

Dodge Command Car

Kettenkrad

US Halftrack

Weasel

US tank (Stuart or Sherman).

Brencarrier

 

WW1 libertytruck or 1918 Dodge Pickup

 

Mostly WW2 as you can see.

If I think longer the list will expand.

[Jack]

I must say that ever since I joined the MV movement that I am finding myself attracted to our post war history.

 

It isn't something I have studied much but I can see that I will be taking an interest in as I found it a fasinating subject and I am drawn to it. This has manly come about because of HMVF as you guys discuss it all, Ferrets, Pigs, Stalwarts and I know where you come from Chris with regards to your Ferret as when I have attended shows with Hardy Ferret it never fails to amaze me of the attention the Ferret gets, people adore it and he is always answering questions from people who have used them. I am stood there with my pride and joy saying '.....please you can come and look at mine too :blush:'

[fv1609]

Jack a way to get people interested in your vehicle is to lift up the bonnet & scatter tools & spare parts around & look pretty peed off trying to fix it. That will draw people in their droves. Below is after the gawpers had dispersed watching the problem of fitting a very heavy dynamo to the pig at Yeovil. People are absolutely fascinated that something is going on & especially something going wrong, often asking:

"having trouble mate?" - well yes

"I bet you're annoyed" - well yes

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v684/fv1620/Dscf2203.jpg[/img]

 

But if you have a genuine problem & want fewer gawpers, then form a blockade of tools etc so that they cannot see the area you are working on, once that is denied them then interest is lost.

 

BTW thanks to Kevin for his help on that occasion, but there's no point in saying that as you aren't on HMVF are you :wink: Yes Neil I am parked next to one of those things.

 

Jack you are right about people identifying with a vehicle. When I am with the Hornet, whether I am next to a Jeep, Land Rover or whatever there will be more interst shown in my neighbours than the Hornet with its missile stuck in the air. The reason for this is that most ex-soldiers have never seen one & dismiss it as fantasy as it was used only by an elite & hardly known about unit (Para Sqn RAC). People can identify with the more widely known vehicles as they drove one, know someone who drove one or they would like to drive one etc.

 

When I do get asked questions it is not about the miussiles but endless silly questions about the smoke dischargers.

 

 

[sirhc]

Jack,

This site is excellent if you're interested in our history post WW2.

 

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/

 

Chris

[Snapper]

WW2 is always going to be the winner and the element of snobbery surrounding it (if this is, indeed, the correct terminology) is omnipresent. Even within the WW2 crowd you have the jeeps and the rest. People draw together. I am massively in favour of vehicles being kept in their original guise. I understand, but loathe, Hotchkiss jeeps being made into Yanks. But I always stress, it isn't MY money and I always respect the work effort. So, Greek jeeps and Norwegian WC's are required. Be brave . As for the Brits, the previous posts are entirely correct. The poor things were worked to death and hacked up. How many Morris-Commercial breakdowns or Matadors have you seen at classic commercial shows? While it would be nice to see SOME of them converted back to WD standard, who would do it?? I agree wholeheartedly with the quotes by Pat Ware in his interview with Jack about the movement being great because of it's diversity. This doesn't stop me being miffed with people turning their nose up at my Iltis at shows because A) it's modern and B it's not whatever they want it to be (but you should see the smiles I get from the car nuts on Southend sea front - time to do an MV cruise there methinks). Just keep on keepig on. For the sake of debate - here is my wish list in no particular order:

 

Volvo Suggan

Dodge Weapons carrier

ACMAT

Volvo anti-tank jeep

M3 half track (or M5/M9)

Sheridan M551 tank

Ford MUTT

M38 CDN

etc etc

 

[Jack]

Cheers Snap.

 

I did say back sometime in one of my articles that I wanted to have another GMC to revert it back to represent the Norwegian army as I think this would give a good reprsentation of the GMC and their long military history..........

[Enigma]

Concerting a Hotchkiss to a WW2 vehicle is up to the person.

But its a bit of fooling yourself since it wasn't a WW2 vehicle.

If a WW2 jeep was totally unobtainable I can understand the compromise.

BTW is there much difference in price; WW2 jeep versus Hotchkiss in the UK?