Canvass colours

[rippo]

Hello,

I think i've taken rivet counting to a whole new level i'm now counting the stiches in my canvass!!

What i'm trying to figure out is what was the original colour of the british canvass's during the war. There are certainly two or three definate colour differences, brown, green, khaki. If anyone knows why or if a particular colour was used on certain vehicles it would be intresting to hear.

At the moment my truck has khaki canvass's on it which you see most canvass's made of,

 

 

But i found a small piece of canvass still nailed to the seat when i was restoring it and that was definatley green. Thats what got me thinking. Then i saw maurices bedford at war and peace and he's remade his canvass's in green.

 

 

 

And also sirhc'c were remade in green.

 

 

 

Then i came across some orignal factory drawings that state the colour as "khaki green to comply with w.d. spec" So this added some confusion to it again. When i was on my travels last year, i discussed this with some like minded folk, and some said the canvass on mine was correct, others thought i should be green.

 

Earlier on this year i picked this up. It has the part number LV7 AN 2540-99-831-9903 on it and was packed it 1963 then repacked in 1966.

 

 

 

Inside the bag is a brand new canvass for the rear of an mw, or so i was told, looking at it again it may well be a k9 one. Peeping through the bag i could see it had mildew on it so expected it to be rotten. I took it out of the bag, and fortunatley isn't rotten at all. Covered in mildew but it "seems" to wash off.

 

 

 

Its a slightly different patten to the others i've seen, the back door is one piece and it has leather renforcing on the window straps. It's certainly green but is that because it was produce in the 60's?

 

Also i have some original seat covers.

 

 

 

These have the vauxhall bedford label on, no date. But they are certainly green, my camera makes them look khaki, but they aren't as green as the rear sheet.

 

 

 

These are some seat backs, although slightly faded on the outside, on the inside they are green nearly the same colour as the new bases above. The green on the inside you can see is more a true reflection of the cushions above.

 

So could it be the case the canvass did start of light green and the faded to khaki once it had been in use?

 

I also have these side screens for the later mw's

 

 

 

These are also green the same as the rear canvass, but again i'm not sure when they were made. There have been a number of these turn up at the shows and they have aways been that colour. The one without the siganling window is an mw one, but the other is very slightly different, i tapers to alow for the slope of the windscreen so not mw, does anyone recognise it?.

 

Does anyone else have any original canvass? I'm now of the mind the canvass should be green and then it'll fade to khaki, but how green i'm not quite sure.

 

And lastly i picked up this roll of canvass. The wrong green al together i was going to use it for dust sheets. Somebody said it was the AFS and NFS that used this colour, and i seem to remember the Q4's and RLs fitted with something similar. Anyone shead and light on it? Its 3 ft wide and 20 meters long. It would be a shame to cut it up if someone can use it.

Edited June 5, 2010 by rippo

[Richard Farrant]

 

 

Earlier on this year i picked this up. It has the part number LV7 AN 2540-99-831-9903 on it and was packed it 1963 then repacked in 1966.

 

]

 

 

 

Hi John,

 

That is an Austin part number, so you are correct about the K9.

 

Wartime canvas was often brown, probably because the base colour of the vehicles was until 1944 onwards, when olive drab was introduced, as to when the canvas colour was changed, my guess is when stocks of brown ran out. I have seen NOS top covers for Dingos in brown then others with manufacture date in 1950's, being olive green. Those Bedford seat covers could be postwar (?), I had two NOS ones once and I think they were early Fifties.

[mcspool]

John,

 

Interesting subject!

 

Here is what I can add: Canadian Military Pattern trucks were built to British war Office specs and followed British colour schemes. According to Canadian sources, quoted in Bill Gregg's 'Blueprint for Victory' (p.118, 1981), "Canvas came in sand, khaki and brown, depending on the colour of the truck."

 

Ford parts books describe different canvas colours of Matte Green and Light Stone for the door tops, weathershields and tarpaulins, but not for the seats canvas. I have a set of NOS seat canvas in what must be Matte Green.

 

HTH,

Hanno

Edited June 5, 2010 by mcspool

[rippo]

Hello Richard,

 

Bloody Austin K9, darn it!!

 

I have some brown seat covers also,

 

ATTACH]28331[/ATTACH]

 

These are very similiar to bedford ones, but they have an extra securing tab at the back. So i'm not to sure what they are off.

 

I have always associated the brown canvass with the armoured cars. I have seen some tillys and fordsons with brown, but i've not come across brown used on a bedford.

Edited June 5, 2010 by rippo

[rippo]

Hello Hanno,

Thanks thats also very intresting as that green is very simillar to what i imagined the british colour would be. Is there any date on them?

[Richard Farrant]

John,

 

While talking canvas and Bedfords, I have a pair of seat back covers, in sand colour canvas, stamped inside with a wartime date and makers name, Waring & Gillows, who were a well known furniture maker.

[woa2]

I have found out that the Cabs and Floats (Ford talk for rear body) on WOT2 trucks were made by sub-contractors, and came with the canvas already fitted. Therefore the cab and rear canvas was frequently 2 different colours. I have photos of brand new WOT2 trucks at Dagenham to support this claim, and if you watch the film 'Switchover', you can see the cabs being fitted to the chassis with the canvas already in place before the steering wheel is fitted.

[rippo]

Richard,

I was a bit uncertain weather there was a desert colour, and it was in fact green canvass with blanco on. From what you've said there certainly was so there were four colours.

 

I thought the industrial mop and tent co was odd. You beat me hands down there!!!

 

Robert,

Thanks for your help, Thats intresting to hear about the bodies coming with the canvass already. The bedford bodys came from an outside contractor so i wonder if it was the same?

 

I guess its hard to tell from the pictures but are the canvass's a totally different colour or dfferent shades of the same colour?

 

What kind of bodies did the fords have fitted? I know later ones had a steel body similar to the morris, but was the early ones the same body as the bedford?

 

Thanks

Edited June 5, 2010 by rippo

[Richard Farrant]

Richard,

I was a bit uncertain weather there was a desert colour, and it was in fact green canvass with blanco on. From what you've said there certainly was so there were four colours.

 

I thought the industrial mop and tent co was odd. You beat me hands down there!!!

 

 

 

John,

 

I will try and remember to take a pic of the seat covers on Monday. Another case of desert sand coloured canvas was when we found a NOS tilt for an Austin Tilly at an old surplus dealer near Cambridge. It was all wrapped up but had labels on, think it made mention of Middle East use and dated 1951 or thereabouts.

[rippo]

I remember you telling me now, about the tilly canvass.

 

I've not seen them stamped before. I've just realised i didn't check inside mine properly. So i've just been and turned the covers inside out and there's nothing on any of them. I do think the back i've got is an original one and the colour is a perfect match for the bases when inside out. Also the workmanship isn't what i would have expected on either the bases or the back. The canvass is roughly cut leaving alot of loose string, but it is consistant in them both.To be honest if the ladel hadn't been on the bases i would have thought they were re-made.

 

 

 

Can you make anything out from the numbers richard? I guess the 7067949 will be the part number. Would it be fair to assume these had been made by Vauxhall motors? as they've not got anyone else's name on. Another thing is these covers haven't got the securing staps on the front that hold the cushion to the seat base. As far as i know that was a pretty standard thing on all the bedfords ox-oy (passenger seat) and on the QL. But on the early bedford MW's (i'm not sure about the other models) there were no securing straps, the cushion was held in place by the seat securing bolts so the cushion couldn't be removed without removing the seat. I guess this was soon deemed a bad idea as the seat cushions were always going to get wet and it was soon changed to the straps.

The cushions are bolted down through the seats on maurices, and that is how they were originaly on his, and he doesn't have the press dot stiuds on the front of his seat. My seats do have the press studs on the front, but under the heads of the bolts that secure the seat to the cab floor, there is the remains of the canvass under the heads. I did try to remove the bolts from the seat and get a peice of the canvass out, but after a couple of taps with the hammer i gave it up as a bad idea, as there was more chance of damaging the seat.

So if i am right in assuming that Vauxhall made these cushions, then they must have been made for the earlier seat.

Edited June 5, 2010 by rippo

[Richard Farrant]

Can you make anything out from the numbers richard? I guess the 7067949 will be the part number. Would it be fair to assume these had been made by Vauxhall motors? as they've not got anyone else's name on.

 

So if i am right in assuming that Vauxhall made these cushions, they must have been made to the earlier drawing, without the straps. I wish i had an mw parts book then i could see if there are two part numbers for the cushions.

 

John,

 

These are postwar manufacture, going by the labels, the prefix 61BE is a RAF stock number, the part number 7067949 is listed in the QL book as for QLB ( Bofors tractor), crew compartment, front seat cushion. these are exactly what I have in my QL and I would hazard a guess you got them from the same source. There is an asterisk after the number in the book, denoting that part is also used in MW, OX, OY and QL, so the seat is not really specific to the gun crew compartment of a QLB and can be used on all Bedford seats.

 

regards, Richard

[rippo]

I didn't think of a QLB seat least it isn't out the back of a k9. Still like you say it'll be the same cushion with a different part number for the mw. So i'm not to far off, and i can see how the green is faded out to leave the canvass the same colour as what i've got.

Thank you richard you certainly made sence of the numbers. I got these along with some other stuff i got from an old collector, possibly he got them from the same source as you.

[mcspool]

Thanks thats also very intresting as that green is very simillar to what i imagined the british colour would be. Is there any date on them?

 

Hi John,

 

Just had a close look, no labels or markings other than some numbers in crayon, probably to aid stitching.

 

Hanno

[tim gray]

I was under the impression that pre and very early war kit had the pale sandy coloured canvas and was changed to the khaki or green round about 40.

 

As for the cushions with two straps to the front and one to the rear that is how the seat is assembled on my PU. complete with the stud connections ( you will now tell me i have an iffy pair of seats in the moggie )

 

How were the seats attached in the morris 15Cwt, its only the cushion as the back pad is directly to the rear bulkhead is it not ?

 

Regards

Tim

[rippo]

Hello Tim,

No need to fear mate, you have the right cushions. I had a look at a very nice 15 cwt cs8 over the weekend and his cushions were the same. The strap at the rear holds the cushion in place when the seat is tilted forward. Bedford seats don't tilt, so no strap at the back. From what i can remember you are right about the seats, those morris were thrown together!!!! Its just a base and the back of the seat is a cushion on the back of the cab.

Edited June 8, 2010 by rippo

[woa2]

Hello Richard,

 

Bloody Austin K9, darn it!!

 

I have some brown seat covers also,

 

ATTACH]28331[/ATTACH]

 

These are very similiar to bedford ones, but they have an extra securing tab at the back. So i'm not to sure what they are off.

 

I have always associated the brown canvass with the armoured cars. I have seen some tillys and fordsons with brown, but i've not come across brown used on a bedford.

 

The top cushion is identical to the ones in a Ford WOT2 or WOA2.

Edited June 8, 2010 by woa2

[rippo]

Hello,

I've been looking through some of the drawings i have for the bedford canvass, and it seems the answer was there all along. One of the drawings has has a few changes, and this was mainly the colour. The original colour was khaki green. Then the drawing the was updated in 1947, when the canvass colour was changed to brown, then it was re-drawn in 1957 and the colour was changed to service green.

[mcspool]

Then the drawing the was updated in 1947, when the canvass colour was changed to brown

 

 

That is very interesting! I always thought brown canvas was a pre/early war colour.

[early british ww2]

Hello Tim,

No need to fear mate, you have the right cushions. I had a look at a very nice 15 cwt cs8 over the weekend and his cushions were the same. The strap at the rear holds the cushion in place when the seat is tilted forward. Bedford seats don't tilt, so no strap at the back. From what i can remember you are right about the seats, those morris were thrown together!!!! Its just a base and the back of the seat is a cushion on the back of the cab.

 

Hi Alex thanks for the compliments ... I think !! Both my cs8's are identical in the seating arrangements The seat bases both clip onto the push dot eyes on both sides which helps on the passenger side as that seat does indeed tilt up to get to the fuel tank underneath and the back cushion is fixed onto the backboard of the cab / body with the turn dots which allows the passenger a bit more room in the cab .

 

I do think however that someone has tried to standardise the seat cushions as the bases are the same in the Morris C8's in the fastening sense and the operators seats in the Gin Palace on my Guy Ant Wireless Truck also fasten the same way , which may mean that it was more of a Morris thing as they made the 15cwt Wireless Gin Palaces for Guy as well as for their own C8 Wireless trucks and possibly the Fordson wot's etc - The seat bases in the cabs of both of my Guy Trucks do not appear to have any fastenings much the same as my Bedford and most of what you would think are original seat pads appear to be in a Beechwood sort of colour , some being internally sprung and some not - Interesting differences !?:coffee:

[Brooky]

That is very interesting! I always thought brown canvas was a pre/early war colour.

 

 

From what I remember the seats in Glynns CS8 were made when I had the truck (unless they have been changed since then)

Them and the canvas cover for the body were made by a firm in Preston

The seats were made to an original pattern

[early british ww2]

From what I remember the seats in Glynns CS8 were made when I had the truck (unless they have been changed since then)

Them and the canvas cover for the body were made by a firm in Preston

The seats were made to an original pattern

 

Hi Chris , Hope you are both well - Yes you are right the ones that I have in my 1940 Morris Commercial CS8 are still the ones you had re-made in the green canvas by the chap in preston and they match the original wartime ones which came with my 1939 CS8 and the radio ones in the Guy , although turned round the other way for the seats in the wireless body - you can only just see the drivers seat in the attached pic :coffee:

Edited June 21, 2010 by early british ww2

[Brooky]

Been prize winning with it again :cool2::cool2:

Can just see the rosette!

[Maurice]

to ad more confusion , late war vehicles even had all black cab covers , Fordson and Bedford had dem for sure , because I had them in my hands .Emile Becker from Luxemburg had an ex fire brigade Fordson WOT 2 , and with it was a full black canvas with the observation ring cut out . A wreck of a MW at a scrap yard in Molesworth also had a black canvasin the tool box.

On my MW in the picture is an orriginal radiator blind in Brown , 2 of these I found in the north of Italy.

[Richard Farrant]

to ad more confusion , late war vehicles even had all black cab covers , Fordson and Bedford had dem for sure , because I had them in my hands .Emile Becker from Luxemburg had an ex fire brigade Fordson WOT 2 , and with it was a full black canvas with the observation ring cut out . A wreck of a MW at a scrap yard in Molesworth also had a black canvasin the tool box.

On my MW in the picture is an orriginal radiator blind in Brown , 2 of these I found in the north of Italy.

 

Hi Maurice,

 

That would make sense as during the mid-war period the so called Mickey Mouse pattern camo was used and all upper surfaces were either very dark brown or black, so it save painting the canvas.

[early british ww2]

Hi Maurice,

 

That would make sense as during the mid-war period the so called Mickey Mouse pattern camo was used and all upper surfaces were either very dark brown or black, so it save painting the canvas.

 

Hi Maurice / Richard - I have certainly seen a Morris Commercial Fire Engine with what appears to be a Black cab cover ( I have some photo's somewhere) and there used to be a Morris Commercial C4 around these parts that had brown canvas tilts on it with a funny sort of brown camo pattern to the paintwork and R.A.F. markings - Both trucks were certainly post '42

Interestingly enough the old chap who was restoring what is now my 1940 Guy Ant had a rear canvas made for the truck in Brown before he passed away - The cab cover that is on it is an original one which was the Beechwood colour although now somewhat faded but the same colour as my Guy Wireless truck:coffee: