Grumpy Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 So back to Eastblock's question then - what constitutes UNLADEN?............ Not Laden with goods or burden - sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 (edited) This subject has been done to death about twenty times in recent history, each time a conclusion has been reached, then someone starts a new thread, asking the same question, It has all been covered before, I am getting sick and tired of going round in circles. It has all been said, just use the search engine to find past posts, I can't see anypoint doing it all over again. I have nothing to add. Recovery vehicles, tractors, locomotives, pre 1960 vehicles used unladen, are all clearly goods vehicles as are tower wagons, engineering plant, road construction machinery, since all are discussed in the proposed removal of MOT exemption for GOODS VEHICLES consultation document. Typing UNLADEN into the search engine bings up just one thread with UNLADEN in the title - this one :laugh: Or did you mean another subject? Well actually two, the other was asking for unladen weight of a Bedford MW. The point is - no other thread titles looked remotely applicable to anyone wanting to read up on discussions about unladen use and what can be carried. I'll try advanced search...... Edited March 28, 2010 by N.O.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 (edited) Hmm make your mind up :rofl: I did make my mind up,and corrected the first post I made on the subject, once Croc had pointed out to me where I was wrong, There is little point quoting a "before due concideration" position, and the "post due concideration" position without posting the actual post where I admitted I was wrong, and in which I said why I had changed my position. Perhaps if you are feeling bored you might search out that post and put it up for all to see, then they will understand why I modified my view and my advice. As I said, I have already said once why I changed my position, I am not going back over old ground. Edited March 28, 2010 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 (edited) Typing UNLADEN into the search engine bings up just one thread with UNLADEN in the title - this one :laugh: Or did you mean another subject? Well actually two, the other was asking for unladen weight of a Bedford MW. The point is - no other thread titles looked remotely applicable to anyone wanting to read up on discussions about unladen use and what can be carried. I'll try advanced search...... just try typing in "used unladen" into the engine, that gets about 23 posts, (rough count) searching "pre 1960 used unladen" brings up 20 relevant posts. As I say it has been much discussed already. Results:- What is "unladen"? Started by Eastblock, Today 11:03 3 Pages • 1 2 3 Replies: 29 Views: 222 Last Post By: Last Post: Today 21:31 by Grumpy Forum: Legislation, Licenses & Registration Important MOT Testing Exemptions Consultation VERY IMPORTANT Started by griff66, 29-01-2010 15:30 36 Pages • 1 2 3 ... 36 Replies: 351 Views: 10,479 Last Post By: Last Post: Today 15:24 by N.O.S. Forum: Legislation, Licenses & Registration Mobile Project Vehicles Started by Blackpowder44, 21-02-2009 23:01 24 Pages • 1 2 3 ... 24 Replies: 233 Views: 5,235 Last Post By: Last Post: 24-03-2010 21:01 by LoggyDriver Forum: Legislation, Licenses & Registration Pre 1960 vehicles,,,who can drive it Started by paulob1, 17-03-2010 16:26 2 Pages • 1 2 Replies: 11 Views: 378 Last Post By: Last Post: 22-03-2010 19:17 by antarmike Forum: Legislation, Licenses & Registration Important Proposed MOT regulations VEHICLE LIST Started by safariswing, 03-02-2010 00:41 9 Pages • 1 2 3 ... 9 Replies: 84 Views: 3,115 Last Post By: Last Post: 20-03-2010 13:53 by safariswing Forum: Legislation, Licenses & Registration The MOT Question... Started by thedawnpatrol, 04-12-2007 20:50 10 Pages • 1 2 3 ... 10 Replies: 94 Views: 6,323 Last Post By: Last Post: 17-03-2010 14:46 by Big ray Forum: Legislation, Licenses & Registration Operating HGVs Started by Scammell4199, 02-12-2009 22:02 5 Pages • 1 2 3 ... 5 Replies: 45 Views: 1,807 Last Post By: Last Post: 16-03-2010 09:18 by Tony B Forum: Legislation, Licenses & Registration Question licence Started by gps, 28-03-2009 21:15 6 Pages • 1 2 3 ... 6 Replies: 53 Views: 2,140 Last Post By: Last Post: 29-01-2010 21:44 by Tony B Forum: Legislation, Licenses & Registration Registering and taxing aging MVs Started by Jimh, 04-03-2009 08:54 6 Pages • 1 2 3 ... 6 Replies: 50 Views: 1,190 Last Post By: Last Post: 29-01-2010 19:21 by antarmike Forum: Legislation, Licenses & Registration Autocar U7144T thread Started by Jack, 11-10-2009 12:50 7 Pages • 1 2 3 ... 7 Replies: 60 Views: 2,376 Last Post By: Last Post: 14-12-2009 14:20 by 68427vette Forum: American Vehicles Fordson Thames E4 info search Started by davwill, 19-08-2009 20:40 2 Pages • 1 2 Replies: 16 Views: 869 Last Post By: Last Post: 02-09-2009 22:06 by Smithy Forum: MV Chatter Registering Kraz Started by goldfinger, 12-05-2009 17:00 Replies: 6 Views: 368 Last Post By: Last Post: 20-05-2009 22:04 by John C Forum: Transporters & Wreckers (All Nations) Scammell Mountaineer? Started by daz76, 07-02-2009 21:20 2 Pages • 1 2 Replies: 19 Views: 980 Last Post By: Last Post: 02-05-2009 12:47 by radiomike7 Forum: Transporters & Wreckers (All Nations) Humber Pig MOT Started by rachel, 04-03-2009 15:36 6 Pages • 1 2 3 ... 6 Replies: 58 Views: 1,357 Last Post By: Last Post: 16-03-2009 19:00 by sirhc Forum: British Vehicles Recovery trailer Started by sabre, 12-12-2008 07:23 3 Pages • 1 2 3 Replies: 22 Views: 1,165 Last Post By: Last Post: 26-01-2009 21:15 by Richard Farrant Forum: Transporters & Wreckers (All Nations) Recovery and Towing Started by Tony B, 02-08-2008 09:43 21 Pages • 1 2 3 ... 21 Replies: 201 Views: 5,460 Last Post By: Last Post: 21-01-2009 20:49 by rbrtcrowther Forum: MV Chatter Sillly Question Started by paul connor, 16-09-2008 17:27 2 Pages • 1 2 Replies: 13 Views: 337 Last Post By: Last Post: 16-09-2008 22:50 by ArtistsRifles Forum: I maybe stupid, but...... Dodge Mot Started by Chappers, 25-06-2008 09:39 4 Pages • 1 2 3 ... 4 Replies: 31 Views: 793 Last Post By: Last Post: 27-06-2008 21:08 by 00EC25 Forum: MV Chatter Pig MOT exempt or not? Started by Adam Elkins, 12-06-2008 19:24 5 Pages • 1 2 3 ... 5 Replies: 42 Views: 1,349 Last Post By: Last Post: 19-06-2008 08:21 by REME 245 Forum: I maybe stupid, but...... Question HGV license for mv...? Started by Jack, 24-05-2008 23:29 3 Pages • 1 2 3 Replies: 23 Views: 824 Last Post By: Last Post: 31-05-2008 22:17 by ArtistsRifles Forum: Legislation, Licenses & Registration Edited March 28, 2010 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 lol lol lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastblock Posted March 28, 2010 Author Share Posted March 28, 2010 I know there have been discussions in other threads. My intention was to have a thread dedicated to the question as it would be easier for others to spot if it had the word "unladen" in the title. Heck, at the time of posting I even though it was a good idea (guess not). However I don't see how one thread more or less can do any harm and since it is a free world those that believe they have already had their say in the matter are not forced to reply. I don't know how all this strayed into discussions about locomotives, tax and MOT. I just wanted to know what is possible and not possible when driving a pre-1960 truck on a cat B license. Perhaps it would the right time to ask a moderator to close this thread before a fight breaks out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapper Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 Evenin' all As I was invited, I am putting my size eights in the mix. If this thread appears to be going a little off topic and causing me to receive PMs from people anxious not to create tinder for potential disagreement or misunderstanding - can I suggest we let it go for now, please. Softly, softly M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 (edited) To get back on topic "unladen" means different things to different people, and as in all things, until there is case law, ie a precedent determined by a court case, none of us really know, It is clear VOSA, DVLA and the Police all have subtlely different views. The truth is untill someone is actually prosecuted, and a verdict of the trial is given, we will not know for sure what is means. It is reasonably clear there is no case law, or it would have appeared by now, so I think it is fair to say, that just as VOSA, DVLA and the police see it differently, so there are many on here who have their own views. We have to be honest and say that is all that can be said. There is no definitive answer to this question. That is why we are, as usual, arguing the toss..... Edited March 28, 2010 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastblock Posted March 28, 2010 Author Share Posted March 28, 2010 That sounds reasonable. As I don't want to be the one who takes it to court I will probably err on the side of caution and look for a vehicle more suitable for my needs and license entitlement. I'm Danish and possibly not as comfortable with or used to taking chances as far as law goes as those raised in the UK might be. No offence intended - just an observation on possible cultural differences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapper Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 (edited) No probs Mike. Fully understood. I have a duty of care to cover all the bases and like to do it wearing the sort of oven gloves Jack should have bought himself for when he tries to cook like Sophie Dahl - rather than appear to be heavy handed.... MB Edited March 28, 2010 by Snapper something odd happening with duplicated words Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 Found on the DVLA Web site “The unladen weight of a commercial vehicle is its weight when not carrying goods”. The definition of unladen weight stated by DVLA includes the body and all parts necessary for the vehicle to operate normally on a road, excluding water, fuel or other substances used to power the vehicle. So should the question be what constitutes “Goods” But according to DVLA the vehicle becomes laden when water, fuel or other substances used to power the vehicle is added. Taking the wording literally it seems technically impossible to drive a vehicle laden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 (edited) Taking the wording literally it seems technically impossible to drive a vehicle laden. Do you mean Unladen? Which is where confusion sets in again because a tractor or locomotive is a vehicle, not itself designed to carry a load other than equipment for propulsion, loose tools and loose equipment. A Loco or tractor therefore cannot carry a load, but it does have fuel in its tanks, water in its radiator, oil in its gearbox, but in this case it is not a load. do we therefore assume a load must therefore be different to goods?? is unladen different to not carrying a load? In evryday speech unladen means the same as not carrying a load, but is this true os legalese? More confusion, Tractor and Locomotives are differentiated by their unladen weight, so presumably they also have a laden weight, but they do not carry a load. They are not designed to, nor are they allowed to. No wonder we argue. Edited March 28, 2010 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 Yes Unladen Off topic a bit but wouldnt the laden weight of a loco be with balast which, could be classed as vehicle equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 Yes Unladen Off topic a bit but wouldnt the laden weight of a loco be with balast which, could be classed as vehicle equipment. But not all motor tractors carry ballast. Historically the definitions of Motor Tractor, Locomotive etc have their roots in traction engine, Road locomotive days, and something like a Fowler or Burrell Road loco, had no provision for running with added ballast, ( well only the chains you could pile on it!) A steamer would be A tractor or a Locomtive based on its weight, that could not be increased by adding ballast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastblock Posted March 29, 2010 Author Share Posted March 29, 2010 My manager is a "Special" (Hobby Bobby) in his spare time and he has promised to ask his colleagues in Traffic what they consider to be "unladen" and what action they might take if they stop a pre-1960 goods vehicle carrying personal belongings in the back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Just to ad to the fun. I had a word with our enginners today. Now they reckon 'unladen' is the vehicle ready for service. No driver, but full fuel tank and all oil and fluids. So on a lorry, is that the chassis and cab, or with a body on? The fuel oil water bit makes sense of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Just to ad to the fun. I had a word with our enginners today. Now they reckon 'unladen' is the vehicle ready for service. No driver, but full fuel tank and all oil and fluids. So on a lorry, is that the chassis and cab, or with a body on? The fuel oil water bit makes sense of course. The wording is Vehicle used unladen, and not drawing a laden trailer... So not only do we need to know what an unladen vehicle we need to know what a laden trailer means. cos you can't tow a trailer if it is laden, but what if you wanted to make a very long journey and you carried fuel on the trailer. would that fuel be a load, if the fuel in the tractor isn't a load? ie is fuel carried on a trailer a load, until it is put in the vehicle whereupon suddenly it isn't a load? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Point taken. When do we start on Angel's dancing on the head of a pin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utt61 Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 I researched this extensively about ten years ago in the context of load carrying goods vehicles, and found definitions in (possibly superseded) legislation to the effect that a vehicle is "unladen" is if it carrying only the fuel, fluids, spares and tools essential to its propulsion. So it is unladen if you are carrying a full tank of fuel (but not additional fuel in cans), spare tyre or tyres, and such tools as might reasonably be considered necessary such as wheel changing equipment. A passenger is not considered a load. Your lunch, however, is. Similarly for trailers - spare wheel, tools, OK, anything else = load. The situation is less clear for something like a reocivery vehicle. I think the letter of the law would likely be that anything that was not part of the vehicle structure and was not essential for the process of getting the vehicle from one place to another did constitute a load. So the crane in an Pioneer would not compromise a load, but tools for repairing a casualty, fuel in cans, loose lifting tackle and chains, removable ballast, and things of that nature would. Please bear in mind that this is my educated assessment based on research I carried out some time ago and does not consitute legal advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 So it boils down to what you can get away with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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