What is "unladen"?

[Eastblock]

We had a discussion about this in the big MOT thread but I thought it might be useful for this topic to have its own thread.

 

What exactly defines unladen? I have a pre-1960 truck and am allowed to drive it on my B-cat license "unladen". Does that mean I can't put fixtures in the box to use it for camping? In my view if it is a fixture (such as cooker or beds) it is not to be considered as a load but the law might view it differently. Some say it is OK to carry personal belongings, others say it is not. I have not been able to find a clear, unambiguous definition on the Internet.

[gritineye]

This has always been a tricky one as you say, the conclusion I have come to is that the safest thing to do is to permanently fix the fitted out box to the vehicle, then register it as a living van. This should enable you to keep the pre 1960 HGV test exemption (it is still a goods vehicle) and still tax it historic. You can then carry personal effects, clothes, food, bedding, water, toilet and such that you use for living in the van, but not chairs, tables, tents, barbeque etc. or display stuff that are for use outside it. These and any thing else carried on the vehicle whether for monetary gain or not is classed as a load.

 

I have found the relevant documents to support this but not on this PC, will have a look later if you want.

 

Beware your insurance company may have a get-out if you carry gas bottles in it as the perceived risk changes in their eyes.

[Eastblock]

Yes please, I would appreciate if you could find the docmentation. My truck has a permanently attached radio box.

[antarmike]

There are rules that state what must be in a living van to make it such, from memory, bed, sink and cooker have to be "permenantly fixed" you cannot have a camp bed, and a camping stove and wash up in a bowl and it be a living van, these items have to be built into the structure of the van.

[LoggyDriver]

There are two definitions here, Motor Caravan and Living Van. The Living Van option would still require a HGV test unless it is pre 1960 (this is my understanding). The other is Motor Caravan. Be carefull as this definition requires a class 4 MOT regardless of the age (as it's then a class 4 MOT and not an HGV MOT).

 

I looked at the Motor Caravan option but it's a nightmare. There are certain things that need to be fitted permanently to meet the definition. This then needs to be inspected to prove this has been done and that the law has been complied with regard to the fitment of gas stoves, length of gas hose, air circulation, gas cylinder storage, fire protection equipment etc,etc.

 

It then changes it's use from Private HGV or Historic Vehicle to that of a Motor Caravan or Living Van. This then presents problems with insurance as Footman James will not cover the vehicle as it's no longer classed as a Historic Military vehicle but that of a Motor Caravan and these need special insurance due to the fact you are storing gas and using gas equipment inside a vehicle.

[Grumpy]

I was under the impression that the criteria for driving a pre 1960 vehicle over 3,500 kg on a full B (car) licence was:

 

"A goods vehicle manufactured before 1 January 1960, used unladen and not drawing a laden trailer"

 

Now if you convert your goods vehicle to a motor caravan or living van, it’s no longer a goods vehicle.

 

What’s the consensus on here regarding this? Same applies for other non goods, pre 1960 vehicles such as Scammell Explorers etc.

Edited March 28, 2010 by Grumpy

[Marmite!!]

I was sent this a while back re Living Vans....

 

MOTs for motorhomes

 

There is sometimes confusion, even within the MOT trade, over the type of MOT test that motorhomes are subject to. Motorhomes are registered with the body type 'motor caravan', in the past this description was applied quite loosely but recently the DVLA and VOSA have been more rigid in aplying the regulations. In fact anyone registering a change of vehicle type after carrying out a conversion, or registering an imported motorhome, is likely to be required to have the vehicle checked at a VOSA Testing Station before DVLA will issue a new registration document.

 

Motor caravans are subject to an annual Class 4 MOT test from 3 years old, however we heard that some larger motorhomes with garages were being classed at 'living vans' by MOT testing stations. This has potentialy serious implications, as you will see below.

 

We asked VOSA about the regulations that apply to motorhomes, as far as the MOT test is concerned. This was their reply:

 

"A 'motor caravan' is "a motor vehicle (not being a living van) which is

constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and

which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which

are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living

accommodation for its users". Motor caravans are not classed as goods

vehicles for MOT test purposes and are therefore in class IV or V depending

on their seating capacity but regardless of their size or weight.

A 'living van' is "a vehicle, whether mechanically propelled or not, which

is used for living accommodation by one or more persons and which is also

used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one

or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle". 'Living

vans' are classed as goods vehicles and, depending on their weight, are

therefore in either class IV or VII within the MOT test scheme or are

subject to HGV plating and testing.

A 'living van' up to 3000kg dgw (Design Gross Weight) would require a class IV

test, and the first MOT would be due on the third anniversary of first

registration.

'Living vans' over 3000kg and up to 3500kg dgw require a class

VII test and would require an MOT when the vehicle is 1 year old.

(NB This statement was later corrected - see below)

If the 'living van' is over this weight then it would be a HGV MOT test that the

vehicle would require and this also would be due when the vehicle is 1 year

old. "

We then asked about their definition of 'living van' and the phrase:

"... used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle."

When we asked about carrying a small car or motor cycle in a motorhome we had this reply:

"A small car or motorcycle would be classed as goods as it is not needed by

such one or more persons for the purpose of their residence. When it

states "for the purpose of their residence" it refers more to things that

are necessary for the vehicle to be lived in, e.g, cooker, refridgerator,

beds, etc."

So it seemed that a motorhome adapted to carry a motorbike or scooter could be classed as a 'living van'. If so it would be regarded as a goods vehicle and, if over 3500kg GVW it would be subject to a HGV MOT test EVERY YEAR FROM NEW.

We regarded this as patently ridiculous and asked where the line is drawn between possessions that may be carried for this purpose, and those that VOSA deems to be 'goods'. One assumes that a motorhome owner may carry some personal possessions 'for the purpose of their residence', eg clothes and food!

The matter was then referred to the Department for Transport, who replied as follows:

"LIVING VANS

 

I refer to your follow-up e-mail message of 18th October to colleagues in the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) which has been forwarded to me at the Department for Transport as we have responsibility for the legislation governing roadworthiness testing.

 

First of all, I should mention that there was a slight error in the second message that you received from the enquiry team at VOSA. To clarify, vehicles which require a class VII MOT test (goods vehicles between 3000 and 3500kgs design gross weight (DGW)) are only required to undergo a first MOT three years after the vehicle was first registered and not from the first year following registration as stated in the e-mails from VOSA. I’m sorry if this has caused confusion.

 

To clarify further, I can confirm that all living vans are regarded as goods vehicles. This is because such vehicles are used primarily for living accommodation but are also able to carry goods which are not needed for the purpose of residence in the vehicle. Section 192 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 defines ‘goods’ as ‘goods or burden of any description’. As such, ‘goods’ is not a term restricted solely to items carried for gain or reward. It is our view, therefore, that bikes or cars carried in a designated area on a vehicle should be regarded as goods and that vehicles which have the capacity to carry such items within them have to be regarded as living vans and not motor caravans.

 

Smaller living vans (under 3,500kgs) can be MOT tested as Class IV or Class VII vehicles depending on their weight. The first MOT test would be required from the third year following registration and then every year thereafter. However, many living vans are outside the scope of MOT testing as they exceed 3,500kgs in weight. These heavier living vans should be tested at a VOSA goods vehicle testing station under the Goods Vehicles (Plating and Testing) Regulations 1988. Such vehicles must be tested annually from the first year following registration.

 

I hope this clarifies the position. "

 

We didn't think that clarifed the position at all and we asked a series of further questions, in particular concerning the properties of a 'designated area' which determine whether the motorhome is classed as a 'living van' or not.

We received a further reply from the DfT:

 

[Letter dated 17/11/06]

Following your further e mail of 1st November I have discussed these, matters further with colleagues in other parts of the DfT.

One point we thought should be clarified is that different legislation governs the requirements for the registration of vehicles with the DVLA from the roadworthiness testing of vehicles under schemes managed by VOSA. This is why the definitions used for vehicles vary according to whether we are talking about the registration or the testing of a vehicle. Whichever way DVLA classify motor caravans has no bearing on the matter of the testing of the vehicles since the term "motor caravan" is defined in the 1981 Motor Vehicle Tests Regulations [page ref 7998/210/3 ] which governs the roadworthiness testing of vehicles.

We take your point that a "living van" looks just like a motor caravan but the important difference is that it is used to carry goods and is therefore classified as a goods vehicle. The consequence is that if the living van is above 3500kg gross vehicle weight it falls under the goods vehicle plating & testing regime and will need to have an annual roadworthiness test, once the vehicle is a year old, carried out at a VOSA test site.

The view of my colleagues is that whether a motorhome has a locker of a particular size is not really relevant to this issue because all motorhomes have room that could be utilised to carry goods. The question is whether or not the vehicles are used for carrying goods rather than items that are needed for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle. It is up to the vehicle owner to declare whether the vehicle is used for carrying goods or not. VOSA would not be in a position to determine this at the time the vehicle is presented for test as they will not know the use to which the vehicle is being put. If the owner tells the test station that the vehicle is a motorhome and has it tested as such and then subsequently a Police check reveals that the vehicle is being used to carry goods then it would seem to us that an offence would have been committed.

However, the interpretation of what constitutes an offence is of course down to the Police and then ultimately the courts to determine. In our replies to you we have tried to indicate what we thought the intention was in introducing the legislation. In fact though we have no remit to say what effect the legislation, as drafted, actually has - or indeed whether or not an offence is actually committed under the different scenarios you have described. Our main function needs to be limited to pointing people to the relevant sections of the legislation.

We have not seen any evidence that there is a problem at present with people having motorhomes which they then use to carry goods and are subsequently prosecuted on that basis. So perhaps your interpretation of "goods" as being "items not in the possession of the vehicle occupant" is closer to the way that the enforcement authorities are currently choosing to interpret the carriage of mopeds and bikes owned by the drivers of motorhomes.

However if you are aware that there have been cases of the Police prosecuting any of your members for carrying items which the Police deem to be goods and therefore require the vehicle to be tested as a class VII vehicle or even a goods vehicle required to be tested under the plating and testing regime then certainly you could put a warning on your website to cover the issues that have been raised in your correspondence with us.

You did mention in one of your earlier e mail messages that some people would be carrying a small car from their large motorhomes. It really is quite difficult for us to see how the definition of items "needed for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle" could be stretched to include small cars. Nevertheless interpretation by the enforcement authorities is a matter of both fact and degree and we can offer no further advice on the specific point of what would or would not be treated as "goods".

To amend the definitions in legislation, as you have suggested, may seem straightforward to you but would in fact require changes to primary legislation and there are no plans to do this. Partly this is due to the other priorities that exist with a busy Parliamentary schedule, but in any case there appears at this stage to be no evidence that the Police have found a problem with people having vehicles tested as motorhomes which are really being used to carry goods. It would therefore be difficult to justify the need for these changes which would inevitably be time consuming and costly.

To conclude we would suggest that the best advice to give your members is that if they are carrying goods on a vehicle that is over 3.5 tonnes it is very likely to need a goods vehicle test carried out annually at a VOSA test station once the vehicle is a year old. Beyond that if you need advice on the effect of carrying a small car or any other specific items we suggest that you seek independent legal advice.

Well, in our view the statements contained in that letter indicate a shift in the aplication of the term 'Living Van' to motorhomes. It now seems that it is up to the motorhome owner to declare to the Testing Station whether their vehicle is used to carry goods. If a declaration is made that goods are not carried, then the vehicle will be accepted as a motorhome and be subject to a Class IV test every year from 3 years old.

I would like to express our thanks to Rob Haggar, from the Department for Transport, for his time and patience in responding to our questions.

(Last updated 17/11/06)

 

</H3>

[honeileen]

Unladen weight here in France is the standard manfactured vehicle with no add ons ie bull bars, living stuff in it etc... and when it goes on a weigh bridge to be tested it must have a full tank of fuel.

 

Not very helpful for you guys in the UK:D:D

 

Christian

[Runflat]

I was under the impression that the criteria for driving a pre 1960 vehicle over 3,500 kg on a full B (car) licence was:

 

"A goods vehicle manufactured before 1 January 1960, used unladen and not drawing a laden trailer"

 

The criteria you cite is for MOT exemption. If you are within this then you are fine. The issue is whether you can take camping equipment with you and still regard the vehicle as 'unladen' - see my thoughts here at post #208:

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?16828-MOT-Testing-Exemptions-Consultation-VERY-IMPORTANT/page21

 

What's being suggested is, as an alternative, meeting one of the alternative groupings for MOT exemption, namley for 'living van'. This may be an option for some, but not for most. In the meantime, ambiguity remains as to what constitutes 'unladen'.

[Grumpy]

The criteria you cite is for MOT exemption. If you are within this then you are fine. The issue is whether you can take camping equipment with you and still regard the vehicle as 'unladen' - see my thoughts here at post #208:

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?16828-MOT-Testing-Exemptions-Consultation-VERY-IMPORTANT/page21

 

What's being suggested is, as an alternative, meeting one of the alternative groupings for MOT exemption, namley for 'living van'. This may be an option for some, but not for most. In the meantime, ambiguity remains as to what constitutes 'unladen'.

 

The criteria I have cited is for driving a vehicle over 3,500 kg on an ordinary B (car) licence. Taken from VOSA booklet INF52 “Special Licensing Arrangements for Drivers of Large Vehicles”. It may also be the same as contained on V112G MOT exemption form.

If you convert your goods vehicle by the fitment of fixtures and fittings as per the first post in this thread into a Living van or motor caravan it can no longer be driven on a B licence if over 3,500 kg whether pre 1960 or not, also quoted in the first post of this thread. It may however still be exempt from MOT / Plating if it complies with the criteria for Living Van.

[Runflat]

Ah! I see what you are getting at. You could well be right.

[Grumpy]

It’s quite worrying, as there are lots of people out there driving pre 1960 vehicles that are not goods vehicles, all the recovery vehicles Wards, Scammell’s etc. is just one group of vehicles.

I can’t find the SI that covers it just VOSA’s INF52, perhaps someone here could clarify it?

[antarmike]

It’s quite worrying, as there are lots of people out there driving pre 1960 vehicles that are not goods vehicles, all the recovery vehicles Wards, Scammell’s etc. is just one group of vehicles.

I can’t find the SI that covers it just VOSA’s INF52, perhaps someone here could clarify it?

These vehicles are in my opinion locomotives, and locomotives are goods vehicles, they do not carry the goods, but they tow trailers that do. Just because they don't have a trailer attached it doesn't stop them being either a locomotive, or a goods vehicle. Remeber the exemtion both for testing and licensing Pre 1960is used unladen, and not drawing a laden trailer.

 

As discussed previously, The exemption from plating and testing says "Motor vehicle" first used before 1960, it does not say, goods vehicle first used etc

 

Ward and Scammell are clearly both "Motor vehicles"

Edited March 28, 2010 by antarmike

[N.O.S.]

It’s quite worrying, as there are lots of people out there driving pre 1960 vehicles that are not goods vehicles, all the recovery vehicles Wards, Scammell’s etc. is just one group of vehicles.

 

I can’t find the SI that covers it just VOSA’s INF52, perhaps someone here could clarify it?

 

Have we not established that the pre-1960 MOT exemption is for any vehicle over 3.5 tonnes, not just goods vehicles? I refer you to the conversion of Antarmike to this philosophy in the MOT Exemptions thread - somewhere around the page 11 point?

Edited March 28, 2010 by N.O.S.

[Grumpy]

Have we not established that the pre-1960 MOT exemption is for any vehicle over 3.5 tonnes, not just goods vehicles? I refer you to the conversion of Antarmike to this philosophy in the MOT Exemptions thread - somewhere around the page 11 point?

 

The wording in both MOT exemption and B licences for pre 1960 clearly states Goods Vehicle.

[antarmike]

The wording in both MOT exemption and B licences for pre 1960 clearly states Goods Vehicle.

I'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Grumpy]

These vehicles are in my opinion locomotives, and locomotives are goods vehicles, they do not carry the goods, but they tow trailers that do. Just because they don't have a trailer attached it doesn't stop them being either a locomotive, or a goods vehicle. Remeber the exemtion both for testing and licensing Pre 1960is used unladen, and not drawing a laden trailer.

 

As discussed previously, The exemption from plating and testing says "Motor vehicle" first used before 1960, it does not say, goods vehicle first used etc

 

Ward and Scammell are clearly both "Motor vehicles"

 

It is true that legally a recovery vehicle is classed as a locomotive when towing a trailer, but I can’t see how any recovery vehicle can be classed as a goods vehicle and as much be driven on a B licence.

The topic is not MOT exemption but driving a vehicle over 3,500kg on a B licence.

[Grumpy]

I'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

Sorry Mike typo, meant driving on a B licence – you’re quite right - again :-D

[antarmike]

This subject has been done to death about twenty times in recent history, each time a conclusion has been reached, then someone starts a new thread, asking the same question, It has all been covered before, I am getting sick and tired of going round in circles. It has all been said, just use the search engine to find past posts, I can't see anypoint doing it all over again. I have nothing to add.

 

Recovery vehicles, tractors, locomotives, pre 1960 vehicles used unladen, are all clearly goods vehicles as are tower wagons, engineering plant, road construction machinery, since all are discussed in the proposed removal of MOT exemption for GOODS VEHICLES consultation document.

Edited March 28, 2010 by antarmike

[Grumpy]

This subject has been done to daeth about twenty times in recent history, each time a conclusion has been reached, then someone starts a new thread, asking the same question, It has all been covered before, I am getting sick and tired of going round in circles. It has all been said, just use the search engine to find past posts, I acn't see anypoint doing it all over again. I have nothing to add, sorry Grumpy i think you are wrong for the reasons i ahve said many times in the past.

 

We’ll agree to disagree then – time for a pint

[N.O.S.]

I thought the subject was pre-1960 large vehicles (presumably taxed as Historic ?), and what constituted 'unladen'?

 

I'm sure that for most of us minions it will be quite acceptable to regard Scammells, Wards etc as just that - not recovery or locomotive. :-)

[Grumpy]

 

Recovery vehicles, tractors, locomotives, pre 1960 vehicles used unladen, are all clearly goods vehicles as are tower wagons, engineering plant, road construction machinery, since all are discussed in the proposed removal of MOT exemption for GOODS VEHICLES consultation document.

 

Clearly affected are Diamond T 980/981. Although pre 1960, there exeption is not based on being a pre 1960 vehicle, used unladen. These are not goods vehicles, they are locomotives, not being designed, themselves, to carry a load. At the moment exempy due to being a Loco. that is prposed to change.

 

Diamond T 969, currently exempt, (recovery vehicle) but due to become mandatory tested.

 

 

 

Hmm make your mind up

 

:rofl:

[Eastblock]

I'm almost sorry I asked now and not sure I have the unambiguous answer I was hoping for. However as I understand it the moment I put something in the back of my truck whether fixed or not then I will no longer be able to drive it on my B cat license.

[Grumpy]

I thought the subject was pre-1960 large vehicles (presumably taxed as Historic ?), and what constituted 'unladen'?

 

I'm sure that for most of us minions it will be quite acceptable to regard Scammells, Wards etc as just that - not recovery or locomotive. :-)

 

Your right, but Eastblock did state he drove his truck on a B licence due to it being pre 1960 a goods vehicle

Edited March 28, 2010 by Grumpy

[N.O.S.]

That's true, Grumpy. I guess if driven by someone with a B licence it should be unladen, but then again even if you have a HGV licence it should still be unladen for the Historic taxation class.

 

So back to Eastblock's question then - what constitutes UNLADEN?............