Have Any Militors Survived?

[4x4Founder]

My current research jag is to ponder whether any of the Militor 4x4s have survived. The is evidence that as many as 75 were built, but some dispute that. The numbers I have seen range from 5-75, but I tend to think it's at the higher end, having seen a report that indicated a fairly large number (around 20) were used in some USA maneuvers in the '20s.

 

The Militor was an interesting truck, with features from some the best 4x4s of the day. It's probably closest to a Nash Quad, with it's spur gear drive and LS differentials, but it has lower gearing to make it more capable and stronger components. It has the better Wisconsin engine from the FWD Model B and , as far as I can tell, the same type of transmission and transfer case (if not the same). The general appearance and layout is similar to the French Latil.

 

Anyway, just wanting to bring up a make I haven't seen discussed here yet.

[antarmike]

I this what we are talking about?

http://sill-www.army.mil/FAMAG/1925/JUL_AUG_1925/JUL_AUG_1925_PAGES_343_348.pdf

Or this one?

http://slovari.yandex.ru/dict/milauto/article/326.htm

Edited March 2, 2010 by antarmike

[Great War truck]

Well that interesting article refers to the Militor and its deficencies, and then talks about and has photographs of the Coleman which is an equally interesting and unusual truck. Thanks for posting that link.

 

I am not aware of any surviving Militors and would bet all of Jacks new hair that there are none left which is a great shame. However, it never ceases to amaze me how regularly interesting trucks turn up in barns and sheds across the globe. So, i look forward to being proved wrong.

 

Tim

[4x4Founder]

Yeah, I have that article too. Coleman took the technology a few steps farther than the Militor and was far more capable than the Quad or the original Model B due to it's two speed transfer case. I was kinda hoping to see a Militor among those hulks on the sea bottom near Hawaii in the nearby thread, since there are indications a few had been stationed there.

[Great War truck]

i didnt know there were any there. Where did you hear this? You never know, Steve might find one yet. it would be a tragedy to know that one does still exist but having been on the ocaen floor for so long it would be beyond viable rescue.

[4x4Founder]

I read about it in a field artillery journal. I'd have to dig around to find the exact reference.

[Great War truck]

Ok. No problem. Thats good enough for me.

[abn deuce]

If any one has a photo or drawing of a Militor I d be interested in see what they looked like .

[Snapper]

I was chatting to Steve about the possibilities of further pix for us and it isn't out of the question - but I had been thinking more about WW2/aviation/maritime stuff. It's all a bonus. Here we are discussing a truck I have never heard of. Education.

 

 

i didnt know there were any there. Where did you hear this? You never know, Steve might find one yet. it would be a tragedy to know that one does still exist but having been on the ocaen floor for so long it would be beyond viable rescue.

[antarmike]

I know very little about these (ie nothing) is the 4x4 Militor fitted with tracks and extra axles halfway down this webpage the same vehicle we are talking about?

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/cargo-personnel/cargo-personnel.html

http://slovari.yandex.ru/dict/milauto/article/326.htm

Edited March 2, 2010 by antarmike

[Johnny]

Possibly another picture of one here : http://img.encyc.yandex.net/illustrations/milauto/pictures/1/336-01.jpg

 

 

[Snapper]

Cool. Great looking motor. Tim will build us one while we wait...

[Tony B]

Yes, just give Tim, a picture, a couple of knitting needles and a roll of steel wool! I swear he could knit it for you!

[4x4Founder]

The tracked conversion referred to is one. I have a few pix but I have to dig them out and scan them. If anyone had Vanderveen's "Army Vehclces to 1940" there are a couple of configurations there. Visually, they are very much like a Latil. It was an evolution and better than both the Quad and the FWD Model B because it had lower gearing. More tire too. Up to about 150 were made, but the exact number has not been verified.

[4x4Founder]

That's a good pic. They used the same sort of axle arrangement as the Quad, with a separate bevel gear differential mounted atop a beam axle, with half shafts to a spur and ring gear reduction at the wheels. It used the same M&S limited slips as the Quad, though reputedly strengthened, The engine was the same Wisconsin T-head the Model B FWD used. As I recall, the gearing was some 30 percent lower than the Quad and a little more than the Model B

[antarmike]

Mention of Militor recovery in 1919 cross aAmerican convoy here

http://www.mvpa.org/memsec/downloads/MVPAConvoyPressRelease4-22-09_V00.pdf

 

No photo though

[antarmike]

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/cargo-personnel/uscpc-3ton4x4-Militor.jpg

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/cargo-personnel/uscpc-3ton4x4-Militor-1.jpg

[Great War truck]

It is a great looking truck. Made out of the best bits of other trucks. The cab is off a Heavy Aviation.

 

I have got the wire wool and will get my needles ready.

 

Tim

[timerover51]

My current research jag is to ponder whether any of the Militor 4x4s have survived. The is evidence that as many as 75 were built, but some dispute that. The numbers I have seen range from 5-75, but I tend to think it's at the higher end, having seen a report that indicated a fairly large number (around 20) were used in some USA maneuvers in the '20s.

 

The Militor was an interesting truck, with features from some the best 4x4s of the day. It's probably closest to a Nash Quad, with it's spur gear drive and LS differentials, but it has lower gearing to make it more capable and stronger components. It has the better Wisconsin engine from the FWD Model B and , as far as I can tell, the same type of transmission and transfer case (if not the same). The general appearance and layout is similar to the French Latil.

 

Anyway, just wanting to bring up a make I haven't seen discussed here yet.

 

I found the following quote in THE ARMIES OF INDUSTRY II. OUR NATION'S MANUFACTURE OF MUNITIONS FOR A WORLD IN ARMS 1917-1918, by Benedict Crowell, published by Yale University Press in 1921. Crowell was the United States Assistant Secretary of War in charge of the United States Army Munitions Program. This is a more popular account of his book on America's Munitions 1917-1918, which was his official report on the Army's war production published by the United States Government Printing Office in 1919. There are chapters on vehicle and tank production in both volumes, which can be located at archive.org for those interested in reading more about U.S. production.

 

The Ordnance Department also created the design of a four-wheel-drive Class T truck, calling the vehicle the "Militor," and built five of them experimentally. Two of these trucks journeyed from Washington to San Franciscoin the Transcontinental Convoys of 1919 and 1920, successfully serving as tractors in the rough going. After the armistice the Army bought seventy-five Militor trucks for the artillery.

 

Based on this, I would say that total production was 80. The five experimental trucks and the 75 production vehicles.

 

Note: The 1st Division Museum in Wheaton, Illinois is in the process of restoring one of the Liberty "B" trucks to an operating condition.

[4x4Founder]

I have seen the same American Munitions material but there are other documents, which I do not have the time to cite in all or detail, which place doubt on the 75 number. These include 1921 Congressional appropriation hearings where the expenditures for these trucks are called into question and the numbers cited by the officers called in for grilling put the number much lower. And there are other citations.

 

Also the citation in the American Munitions documentof two Militors being used on the Transcontinental Convoy is incorrect. Lt. E.R. Jackson's 30 page, October 1919 report on the Transcontinental Convoy for the Tank, Tractor and Trailer Division of the Ordnance Department has a list of all the vehicles used, including serial numbers, as well as reports on their performance. Only one Militor is listed (on page 8) and it's the artillery tractor version and is serial number 6 with motor number AU955. I would also refer you to the recent book, American Road by Pete Davies (a Brit, oddly enough!) on the Convoy and his coverage of that single Militor as the "hero" of the convoy is effusive.

 

The Militor Corp was a company run by a man named Sinclair. It was formed for the sole purpose of building these trucks for the war and the implications were that it was done under some shady circumstances (lack of competitive bidding, new company with no track record, etc.), hence some harsh Congressional commentary. I've read a lot of the Congressional record (yawn) and, frankly, it appears to be more of a witch hunt than something based on fact, but I was mainly reading it to mine information about the trucks. Tough reading! It's clear the Ordnance Branch really wanted the Militor, though, even into the 1920s

 

Another document, With the Motors by Lt. Bryant, is an account of Artillery maneuver in 1923 where 11 Militors were used to transport a battery of 240mm howitzers in a loop around the Ft Bragg, NC, area.

 

Anyway, it remains unproven whether those desired 75 units were actually built. One thing I remember from the Congressional Record is that they ordered a whole bunch of tires for Militors they didn't have and they were a special size that didn't fit anything else! I'd have to go back and dig into my note to verify but I remember being pretty sure that up to 25 were produced. Just couldn't prove that 75 number.

 

The Militor wasn't a technical marvel. There was nothing new or whizbang in it. It was merely an assemblage of off-the-shelf parts or parts designs that better met army requirements. One of the reasons it existed at all was FWD's intransigence (thanks to the stubborn Walter Olen) in building a truck that more closely met army requirements. FWD (Olen) thought they knew "better" what everyone needed, so they were somewhat unwilling to alter their designs to suit military (or anyone else's) requirements (I have a great story about them being involved in the Jeep story). We all know the US Army wasn't/isn't always "dead on target" or reasonable with their requirements either, so at times it boils down to proverbial monkey with a football and FWD likely knew that. Being a successful company with lots of orders, FWD simply declined to provide the football. Still, FWD could have easily built a more suitable truck meeting the same standards and delivering the same performance as the Militor... but they didn't. In essence the Militor was part Latil, part FWD, part Nash Quad and part Walter in it's design and construction. It was patterned mostly after the Latil, whose performance it more or less matched. It's a fascinating truck!

 

timerover51: You said the 1st Div. Museum is restoring a Liberty B and the implication of your statement is that it was a proven Transcontinental Convoy truck. True?

Edited October 21, 2014 by 4x4Founder

[Richard Peskett]

'U.S. Military Wheeled Vehicles' by Fred. W. Crismon has illustrations and info. on the 'Militor' on page 273.

Richard Peskett.

[4x4Founder]

Yeah, he also says that "perhaps" many as 150 were built but I can pretty much shoot that down. That was the original desired amount but the war ended and the contract was cancelled long before they went into serious production. One preprod was sent to France and did see time at the front under test, according to several sources (including the Congressional record).

[Great War truck]

Also the citation in the American Munitions documentof two Militors being used on the Transcontinental Convoy is incorrect. Lt. E.R. Jackson's 30 page, October 1919 report on the Transcontinental Convoy for the Tank, Tractor and Trailer Division of the Ordnance Department has a list of all the vehicles used, including serial numbers, as well as reports on their performance. Only one Militor is listed (on page 8) and it's the artillery tractor version and is serial number 6 with motor number AU955. I would also refer you to the recent book, American Road by Pete Davies (a Brit, oddly enough!) on the Convoy and his coverage of that single Militor as the "hero" of the convoy is effusive.

 

 

 

I agree that there was only one Militor in the first transcontinental convoy, but was one used on the second convoy the following year, although that did not go to San Francisco of course but San Diego.

[4x4Founder]

I agree that there was only one Militor in the first transcontinental convoy, but was one used on the second convoy the following year, although that did not go to San Francisco of course but San Diego.

 

 

Don't know. I haven't seen much on the Southern Convoy. Haven't looked actually.

[timerover51]

I have seen the same American Munitions material but there are other documents, which I do not have the time to cite in all or detail, which place doubt on the 75 number. These include 1921 Congressional appropriation hearings where the expenditures for these trucks are called into question and the numbers cited by the officers called in for grilling put the number much lower. And there are other citations.

 

Also the citation in the American Munitions documentof two Militors being used on the Transcontinental Convoy is incorrect. Lt. E.R. Jackson's 30 page, October 1919 report on the Transcontinental Convoy for the Tank, Tractor and Trailer Division of the Ordnance Department has a list of all the vehicles used, including serial numbers, as well as reports on their performance. Only one Militor is listed (on page 8) and it's the artillery tractor version and is serial number 6 with motor number AU955. I would also refer you to the recent book, American Road by Pete Davies (a Brit, oddly enough!) on the Convoy and his coverage of that single Militor as the "hero" of the convoy is effusive.

 

The Militor Corp was a company run by a man named Sinclair. It was formed for the sole purpose of building these trucks for the war and the implications were that it was done under some shady circumstances (lack of competitive bidding, new company with no track record, etc.), hence some harsh Congressional commentary. I've read a lot of the Congressional record (yawn) and, frankly, it appears to be more of a witch hunt than something based on fact, but I was mainly reading it to mine information about the trucks. Tough reading! It's clear the Ordnance Branch really wanted the Militor, though, even into the 1920s

 

Another document, With the Motors by Lt. Bryant, is an account of Artillery maneuver in 1923 where 11 Militors were used to transport a battery of 240mm howitzers in a loop around the Ft Bragg, NC, area.

 

Anyway, it remains unproven whether those desired 75 units were actually built. One thing I remember from the Congressional Record is that they ordered a whole bunch of tires for Militors they didn't have and they were a special size that didn't fit anything else! I'd have to go back and dig into my note to verify but I remember being pretty sure that up to 25 were produced. Just couldn't prove that 75 number.

 

The Militor wasn't a technical marvel. There was nothing new or whizbang in it. It was merely an assemblage of off-the-shelf parts or parts designs that better met army requirements. One of the reasons it existed at all was FWD's intransigence (thanks to the stubborn Walter Olen) in building a truck that more closely met army requirements. FWD (Olen) thought they knew "better" what everyone needed, so they were somewhat unwilling to alter their designs to suit military (or anyone else's) requirements (I have a great story about them being involved in the Jeep story). We all know the US Army wasn't/isn't always "dead on target" or reasonable with their requirements either, so at times it boils down to proverbial monkey with a football and FWD likely knew that. Being a successful company with lots of orders, FWD simply declined to provide the football. Still, FWD could have easily built a more suitable truck meeting the same standards and delivering the same performance as the Militor... but they didn't. In essence the Militor was part Latil, part FWD, part Nash Quad and part Walter in it's design and construction. It was patterned mostly after the Latil, whose performance it more or less matched. It's a fascinating truck!

 

timerover51: You said the 1st Div. Museum is restoring a Liberty B and the implication of your statement is that it was a proven Transcontinental Convoy truck. True?

 

Sorry to give that idea, but I doubt if it was one of the Transcontinental Convoy trucks, but I will check. As I periodically go to DC for research at the Archives, I will check to see if I can find out how many were built by looking through the Ordnance and Quartermaster Corps records.