Cold War Soviet Armour, How many ready to cross the borders

[Adam Elsdon]

I seem to recall that the Soviet forces in the 80's had something in the order of 50,000 tanks, which didnt include the rest of the Warsaw pacts armoured forces such as East Germany, Czechoslovakia and Poland.

How many tanks and troops did NATO expect to come over the border if the Cold war suddenly became hot?

 

The joys of serving in the forces at that time! it seemed like alot of the exercises i was involved in were based on big armoured pushes in Germany, constant attacks by Russian aircraft, culminating in a "Man made Sunshine" fight, followed by a long period underground....surfacing to not alot of anything, if you hadnt previously died a horrific death.:shocked:

[Enigma]

I think the Netherlands had about a 1000 tanks.

[Meteor mark 4B]

I read somewhere recently that the Russian threat may not have been so great. After the initial front line tank regiments,there were VERY less able troops. (apparently!). We didn't put it to the test thankfully! No need for "Driver, high reverse"

[schliesser92]

I seem to recall that the Soviet forces in the 80's had something in the order of 50,000 tanks, which didnt include the rest of the Warsaw pacts armoured forces such as East Germany, Czechoslovakia and Poland.

How many tanks and troops did NATO expect to come over the border if the Cold war suddenly became hot?

 

The joys of serving in the forces at that time! it seemed like alot of the exercises i was involved in were based on big armoured pushes in Germany, constant attacks by Russian aircraft, culminating in a "Man made Sunshine" fight, followed by a long period underground....surfacing to not alot of anything, if you hadnt previously died a horrific death.:shocked:

 

The first part of any major exercise was the fallback to the Rhine. That was the point where nuclear weapons were to be used. Basically the answer was ALL OF THEM!

 

The Russkis anticipated to be on the French Atlantic coast in under 100 hours! Under exercise conditions, the fallback to the Rhine was expected to take 72 hours (less if the brits played the Russians and the yanks were defending!) . The main obstacles for the Soviets were the Elbe and the famous "Fulda Gap".

 

You have to remember that the Russian/Soviet army had three categories of divisions (aprt from the armour, mechanised infantry designations). They were "A" (newest equipment, up to strength), "B" (somewhat older equipment, minimum 60-70% of total strength), and "C" (ancient equipment,. basically cadre with fill-in from the reserves). What we faced were a mass of cat "A" divsions.

[Meteor mark 4B]

Not too good then?

[schliesser92]

Not too good then?

 

 

No, not really. Although the quality wasn't up to the quantity. Based on MI briefings:

 

Bridging engineers practiced on prepared crossings, at night under floodlights (they ASSUMED air supremacy!)

In winter, conscripts were draining the anti-freeze from vehicles (alcohol based with them), filtering it through rye bread, and then drinking it!

Most of the armour (mainly APCs and recce vehicles) were amphibious, what wasn't could wade to rather deep depths.

They had absolutely masses of air-defence assets.

They did everything to a prepared plan. These plans (such as taking a hill) were prepared at the General Staff level, and did not allow for extenuating circumstances. Thinking "outside the box" was discouraged.

Maps were classed as secret documents.

In the early days, a tank company of ten tanks had only 4 radios. The company and platoon leaders. That's why you see pics of Russian tankies poking out of the lids with little flags. Sort of signal "Plan B, lads!"

 

Happy days!

[ArtistsRifles]

As I recall from those days the other unplanned obstacle - to both sides - were the Poles and possibly the Czechs. it was touted at Intel levels that, were the Soviets to initiate such a push the forward units might wake up the next day to find their allies behind them - weren't any more. At least - they were still there behind them, only no longer allies and who knew every weak spot on the kit in front of them... Theory being the Poles and possibly the Czechs would regard such an action by the Soviets as a heaven sent opportunity to reclaim their own sovereignty and give Moscow's Commissars the order of the boot. Literally.

 

It would have been an "Interesting" development as the crunch was whether the White House and Whitehall would have been prepared to order a counter strike on the then - supposedly - disorganized Soviet Forces and thus support the actions of the renegade Communist countries. Fortunately we never needed to know the answer.......

[schliesser92]

As I recall from those days the other unplanned obstacle - to both sides - were the Poles and possibly the Czechs. it was touted at Intel levels that, were the Soviets to initiate such a push the forward units might wake up the next day to find their allies behind them - weren't any more. At least - they were still there behind them, only no longer allies and who knew every weak spot on the kit in front of them... Theory being the Poles and possibly the Czechs would regard such an action by the Soviets as a heaven sent opportunity to reclaim their own sovereignty and give Moscow's Commissars the order of the boot. Literally.

 

It would have been an "Interesting" development as the crunch was whether the White House and Whitehall would have been prepared to order a counter strike on the then - supposedly - disorganized Soviet Forces and thus support the actions of the renegade Communist countries. Fortunately we never needed to know the answer.......

 

I think that the only people that the Russians "trusted" after a fashion were the East Germans. Then , having some 30 odd Divisions of Soviet troops in-country tended to enforce that "loyalty"!

 

It is also interesting to note that the NVA, on receiving their Soviet tanks, instantly "Germanised" them. So, although they had older equipment, it was definitely more capable than the equivalent stuff the other satellite states had. (source: an ex-NVA officer who's now a colleague at my work)

[ArtistsRifles]

I think that the only people that the Russians "trusted" after a fashion were the East Germans. Then , having some 30 odd Divisions of Soviet troops in-country tended to enforce that "loyalty"!

 

It is also interesting to note that the NVA, on receiving their Soviet tanks, instantly "Germanised" them. So, although they had older equipment, it was definitely more capable than the equivalent stuff the other satellite states had. (source: an ex-NVA officer who's now a colleague at my work)

 

Funnily enough - I was told the same thin in 2007 at W&P - the guy who was throwing the OT-90 that had been taken down as a demo unit around the arena was from the former East Germany and had served on their equivalent of BMP-1's. It was interesting to listen to him recount the differences between theirs and the standard Soviet ones. Just wish I could damn well remember what they were now!! :-(

[croc]

Funnily enough - I was told the same thin in 2007 at W&P - the guy who was throwing the OT-90 that had been taken down as a demo unit around the arena was from the former East Germany and had served on their equivalent of BMP-1's. It was interesting to listen to him recount the differences between theirs and the standard Soviet ones. Just wish I could damn well remember what they were now!! :-(

 

It would have taken more than VOSA to stop the Soviet ones?:coffee:

[ArtistsRifles]

It would have taken more than VOSA to stop the Soviet ones?:coffee:

 

Lost me there I fear!

 

Although the mental picture of all the little hitlers from VOSA getting flattened by 30 divisions of Soviet armour as they try to tell the Soviets "it's all too wide" is VERY appealing!! :cool2: :cool2: :cool2:

[AlienFTM]

Most of the armour (mainly APCs and recce vehicles) were amphibious, what wasn't could wade to rather deep depths.

 

15/19H took the first NATO battlegroup into Poland after WarPac pulled out (so it must have been some time between 1989 when the wall came down and 1992 when they merged to become Light Dragoons).

 

I am told that my erstwhile colleagues were mortified to discover that entire river systems had been landscaped to exactly match rivers in West Germany so that troops could practise driving through the river that, cometh the day, they would traverse for real.

 

Two other eye-openers left over from the Soviet days were on Exercise Area Standing Orders:

 

Use of nerve agent was only permitted on the exercise area if permission had been applied for 48 hours earlier and approved.

 

No use of persistent nerve agent at any time within 2 kilometers (IIRC) of a village.

Edited January 26, 2010 by AlienFTM

[AlienFTM]

In the early days, a tank company of ten tanks had only 4 radios. The company and platoon leaders. That's why you see pics of Russian tankies poking out of the lids with little flags. Sort of signal "Plan B, lads!"

 

Happy days!

 

During my time on the FLOT (77 - 82), our SOP was to engage the tank with the antenna first.

[schliesser92]

Funnily enough - I was told the same thin in 2007 at W&P - the guy who was throwing the OT-90 that had been taken down as a demo unit around the arena was from the former East Germany and had served on their equivalent of BMP-1's. It was interesting to listen to him recount the differences between theirs and the standard Soviet ones. Just wish I could damn well remember what they were now!! :-(

 

My reference book doesn't say what was done to the BMP-1 in the GDr , only that in 1991, some 764 were converted to BMP-1 (Ost) for the Panzer-Grenadiers formed from the old NVA.

 

These "new" modifications included-

Heating for the rear compartment

Lighting according to StVO (German traffic law)

A ladder on the side

A new clutch to improve starting off

Smoke-grenade launchers on the rear of the turret

Anti-slip surfaces

Removal of the SAGGER launcher

Removal of the auto-loader for the 76mm gun

Blocking off the 5th gear

 

It ended up with a max speed of 40km/h (20 km/h on roads), but couldn't officially be used in Germany because the tracks didn't have rubber pads. They stopped these mods after 587 vehicles had been done, due to a restructuring of the Bundeswehr, and sold the lot to Turkey and a couple of other countries.

[ArtistsRifles]

My reference book doesn't say what was done to the BMP-1 in the GDr , only that in 1991, some 764 were converted to BMP-1 (Ost) for the Panzer-Grenadiers formed from the old NVA.

 

These "new" modifications included-

Heating for the rear compartment

Lighting according to StVO (German traffic law)

A ladder on the side

A new clutch to improve starting off

Smoke-grenade launchers on the rear of the turret

Anti-slip surfaces

Removal of the SAGGER launcher

Removal of the auto-loader for the 76mm gun

Blocking off the 5th gear

 

It ended up with a max speed of 40km/h (20 km/h on roads), but couldn't officially be used in Germany because the tracks didn't have rubber pads. They stopped these mods after 587 vehicles had been done, due to a restructuring of the Bundeswehr, and sold the lot to Turkey and a couple of other countries.

 

 

Only one I can recall at all was about fitting spent cartridge catchers to the firing port mounts?? Apparently getting in and out after a prolonged session spent firing AK's out the firing ports was rather "interesting" as the floor would be covered in spent cases....!!

[Radek]

Hi Guys,

I live in Ceske Budejovice (100 000 citizens) this is 45km from Austria border. I was 12 years old at 1989. And what I remember in my town was barracks:

 

tanks troops with T55 and T72

bridging troops

gunners

borders (rengers)

infantry - a few barracs

radio anti-aircraft

airport with mig 21, mig 23, mig 29

 

In every barracs was hunderts of jung mans (18-22 year old) on basicaly army services for 2 years and a few of hunderts of solders in job. This barracs was Czechoslovaks direct in town. In my town was hunderts of soviet solders. In the clouse of town (until 20-30km) was anothers barracs.

 

In the first hours of the could war start all man mobilization!

 

I thing it isn´t a few army. But it is basicaly question, how strong was the komunist propaganda on the yang mans and how fanatics was leaders?

 

Radek

Edited January 28, 2010 by Radek

[Bystander]

Hi Guys,

I live in Ceske Budejovice (100 000 citizens) this is 45km from Austria border.

 

Radek

 

Lovely place Ceske Budjovice.. happy memories of a nice holiday. and of course there is the beer!

[steveo578]

Radek

But it is basicaly question, how strong was the komunist propaganda on the yang mans and how fanatics was leaders?

 

 

Young men in the forces do as they are told, it doesn't matter whether they are indotrinated by Communism or Western Liberal dogma- it is always thus.

 

The belief, which has been mentioned on this thread that satalite Warsaw pact states particularly Poland and Czechosvakia would not fight along side the Soviets is IMO a reiteration of deluded retoric by senior western staff college officers who had a similar mindset as their fore-fathers had at Pashendale- "one more big push and it will be over by Xmas".

 

In 1968 Czechoslovakia was invaded by the Warsaw Pact and although Prague and many of the main Cities (and Eastern Solvak provinces) were seized by Soviet troops much of the grunt work was done by DNVA and Polish troops -the Poles in particular supplying alot of technical, communication and inteligence support. Shades of 1938 and the seizure of Cieszyn perhaps.

 

The British reaction -a series of recruitment posters claiming "it could never happen here".

 

Steve

[ArtistsRifles]

Young men in the forces do as they are told, it doesn't matter whether they are indotrinated by Communism or Western Liberal dogma- it is always thus.

 

The belief, which has been mentioned on this thread that satalite Warsaw pact states particularly Poland and Czechosvakia would not fight along side the Soviets is IMO a reiteration of deluded retoric by senior western staff college officers who had a similar mindset as their fore-fathers had at Pashendale- "one more big push and it will be over by Xmas".

 

In 1968 Czechoslovakia was invaded by the Warsaw Pact and although Prague and many of the main Cities (and Eastern Solvak provinces) were seized by Soviet troops much of the grunt work was done by DNVA and Polish troops -the Poles in particular supplying alot of technical, communication and inteligence support. Shades of 1938 and the seizure of Cieszyn perhaps.

 

The British reaction -a series of recruitment posters claiming "it could never happen here".

 

Steve

 

The people I heard expressing the view weren't staff officers - nor were they of the type Sandhurst "appoved" of - they were hard-nosed realists in the Intel unit of the Regiment. If they thought it was a possibility I'd have been inclined to listen to them.

[schliesser92]

The people I heard expressing the view weren't staff officers - nor were they of the type Sandhurst "appoved" of - they were hard-nosed realists in the Intel unit of the Regiment. If they thought it was a possibility I'd have been inclined to listen to them.

 

The thing that sort of garanteed "loyalty" was drastic discipline.The Soviets didn't even trust their own people! There was no regional recruiting nor regional regiments. A tank company, with a personnel strength of about 50 odd guys had some 14 different nationalities deployed in it. The only ones that were grouped together were the muslims - who ended up in labour battalions, due to a complete mistrust of them by the Politburo.

 

The satellite states were kept on a short leash, receiving older equipment, and with top-notch tank and motor-rifle divisions stationed in them to bolster "soviet-xxx friendship" The anti-communist "underground" wasn't really existant, so a mutiny or back-stabbing attack wasn't really on the cards.

 

I've asked some of my "guests" who did military service (usually 2 years) in these states, and the consensus is that they wouldn't have rebelled against the system - despite what Intel and staff officers liked to think. Remember the motto of the Intelligence community - WE BET YOUR LIFE!

Edited January 31, 2010 by schliesser92
fat fingers!

[ArtistsRifles]

Remember the motto of the Intelligence community - WE BET YOUR LIFE!

 

Only too true I fear!!