Dug in Tank near Arnhem

[Jack]

Would this really of stopped the Red Army?

[steveo578]

Jack

Would this really of stopped the Red Army?

 

 

Would anything? It is significant that the soviets used emplaced tanks notably T18 and T46 tanks (some of which still exist -T46 in minsk museum) and they used emplaced tanks in Soviet Far East and Soviet chinese border during the 1950-80s.

 

The 105mm M4 Sherman shown definately looks like and exhibit, sits far too high for a real waterline turret.

 

Steve

Edited April 12, 2010 by steveo578

[Maurice]

Adrian you are right , that turret is taken of the range , the Sherman itself has now been donated to the Belgian army .

[MichelK]

That 105mm turret is definately not sitting on a hull so is unlikely to be an original defensive position.

 

Hi folks,

 

not all turrets where placed on hulls, by definition

 

Kornwernerzand is an small artificial island and is allmost one big bunker

There where already large bunkers before WW2, it was one of the main Dutch fixed defence's

 

For the location there was no need to dig in an complete hull

 

Concerning the turret it self and the possible hull

I know of an Firefly turret that possibly went to Belgium, nothing of an hull :???

 

MichelK

[Maurice]

I can tell you for sure that the hull were this turret came of is now in Belgium (M4A3 HVSS )

[Joris]

The bunkers at Kornwerderzand were demanded by the Dutch military or they would not agree to building the "afsluitdijk". This was a dike connecting the provinces Friesland and Noord-Holland. It also locked out the sea out of a sizable portion of the Netherlands, changing the Zuiderzee (south-sea) into the IJsselmeer (ijssel-lake).

 

Only at Kornwerderzand did the Dutch manage the Germans stopped dead in their tracks in May 1940. Imagine the look on the faces of the Canadians when they were told to attack the bunkers. Luckily for them the attack was cancelled and the war ended.

 

As you can see on the map below, the 2 miles of completely open and exposed dike that had to be crossed to get to the bunkers. The Germans were washing the blood of the dike after their first assaults in order to not totally demoralize the follow up forces....

 

[tichenor]

I can tell you for sure that the hull were this turret came of is now in Belgium (M4A3 HVSS )

 

I can verify that, seen it and even have some pictures of it (somewhere). It's currently at the Visenaken depot.

 

Tichenor

[MichelK]

Imagine the look on the faces of the Canadians when they were told to attack the bunkers. Luckily for them the attack was cancelled and the war ended.

 

 

Strange thing if you consider the fact that the Canadians where following the German foot steps of 5 years before, attacking from Friesland to Noord-Holland

 

Hi Trichenor,

how's life down south :-D

I thought they had enough remaining Sherman / Firefly hulls in Belgium :cool2:

 

MichelK

[tichenor]

how's life down south :-D

I thought they had enough remaining Sherman / Firefly hulls in Belgium :cool2:

 

 

Life ain't bad down here.

Enough Sherman hulls?? whats enough:cool2:

Probably someone was thinking, that type of Sherman is missing in the collection.

M4A3's are quit rare here in Belgium.

BTW a picture of it : http://www.afvregister.org/Details.aspx?AfvId=10449&Page=0

 

Tichenor

[MichelK]

I know that one, only I found an picture of it at Maaldrift, Netherlands in April 2009 :n00b:

 

http://home.planet.nl/~hoog4201/bb%20%2832%29.jpg

 

That means I have to drop it from the NLD register :eek:

 

By the way, you are showing the hull from it's best side, the other side is in an much "better" condition :whistle:

http://home.planet.nl/~hoog4201/bb%20%2828%29.jpg

 

To get back to the original topic, dug in tanks :saluting:

An Sherman or Firefly turret along the Ellecomsedijk, Rheden; The Netherlands

GPS coordinates (N 52 1.202, E 6 7.669)

It is possible to get up close with street view from google maps

 

MichelK

[steveo578]

MichelK

 

Re: Dug in Tank near Arnhem

 

Originally Posted by

Adrian Barrell

That 105mm turret is definately not sitting on a hull so is unlikely to be an original defensive position.

 

 

 

Hi folks,

 

not all turrets where placed on hulls, by definition

 

Kornwernerzand is an small artificial island and is allmost one big bunker

There where already large bunkers before WW2, it was one of the main Dutch fixed defence's For the location there was no need to dig in an complete hull

 

 

That would be an exception rather than the rule, most bunker turrets have the remains of a hull beneath them whether in the Netherlands in the 1950s or Bulgaria or Russia at the same time because without the hull roof alot of expense would have to be made to make a tie down the turret, especially if the original weapon is retained- requiring good structural strength to absorb recoil. It would also be quite an effort to cut the roof plate from cast hull (Ram tanks) or cast/welded Sherman hull. In the Waterline bunkers the buried hull was part of a formalised design.

 

In WW2 few ex french turrets such as FT17 and R35 were mounted on manufactured plates, in other cases for example Pz 35t and 38t turrets were mounted after the roof plate (riveted construction) was unshipped from the hull.

[mcspool]

According the website about Kornwederzand this is an real fixed defence position

So not just an exhibit

Well, in that case they should be prosecuted for falsification of history.

 

Indeed, in the 1950s the pre-WW2 fortifications were enhanced by digging in Firefly tanks. These were gutted Fireflies, but still fitted with tracks, pushed into a hole in the ground and covered up with sand/soil up to the top of the hull. They differed from the well-known IJssellinie pillboxes, as those were empty hulls cast into concrete, with their main guns stripped and machine guns fitted in the turrets.

 

Somewhere in the late 1950s/early 1960s there was a fatal training incident. A 17-pdr round went off before the breech had fully closed. It turned out the ammunition was no longer reliable and this incident meant the end of the 17-pounder gun in the Netherlands Army.

 

In the 1970s the Fireflies were removed from their positions at Kornwerderzand, luckily one was preserved by the Army.

 

Some 15(?) years ago the museum was looking for a Firefly to dug in again, they could not find one so they scrounged a 105-mm howitzer turret and put it on a slab of concrete. A totally incorrect exhibit in my eyes, as we can see it confuses the public, and then some. One time a volunteer at the museum told me it was "an orginal 17-pounder atomic gun" . . .

 

HTH,

Hanno

 

PS: Rippo, thanks for the pics!

Edited April 19, 2010 by mcspool