steveo578

In the late 1990s there was a StuG M42 105mm (if I recall correctly) recovered from a road in downtown Rimini, so it's poosble that wrecks are still under the italian road system but considering how high the Sherman in the photo is lying I would think it would recovered- even if it was cut up as was the T34 that fell into an entrance to an underground tunnel in Berlin. It is almost certainly a Sherman as opposed to anything else note the soldier gazing intently at where the hull floor access hatch would be - a certainly necessary examination to see if anyone or any remains were in the tank. The only other three piece differential AFVs that could in the hole would be M7, Sexton or M3 Grant -none of which had floor access hatches. There is a lot of recovery stuff available to engineers for the recovery. Steve

It must be remembered that the bidding on these vehicles was within a year of them being declared obsolete OTCM 36468 of 14th Feb 1957 so there were alot of stuff around -they were probably just too worn to merit rebuild for military aid although many more modern types such as M47 were becoming readily available -however no doubt the State Department would have been mindful of the numbers of Shermans that managed to end up in Israel -who were not regarded as a friendly state by the Eisenhower administration.

the popular mechanics story was once mentioned in Wheels & Tracks .

Lee Fair point; that the trick Chris Suslowicz mentioned is now a thing of the past -but it was a fairly regular occurance before the quoted exclusion was added to insurance certificates. Steve

I take it that as you have amended/edited your post No.4 you have taken my point that a sorn and therefore a vehicle off the public road means no insurance requirement:D Steve

Its probably one sided -the "good side" photographed- I wouldn't be surprised if what's left of the turret is lying in area facing the guns, similarily to the Sherman -which was a Bovington exhibit the 1960s. Shame the SSSI status prevents recovery although depending on the attitude of the Range authorities the Churchill might be a source of suspension components although-the track looks at full streach, Eddy wakey wakey:D . Steve

I think you need to read your posted link more closely http://news.gocompare.com/2011/01/ne...ivers-0000048/ as quoted from the go-compare article Apart from the obvious of preventing illegal driving it will resolve the current problem when a parked un-insured vehicle in involved in an accident. Steve

Initally I thought it was the 1985 dis-internment but realised it some something else when Imber was mentioned. Mv Press isn't as good as it was when W & T was around the quarterly format also gave time to gather information. Steve

I doubt he means the BARV that is quite well known and was never buried and I think was an ex Pounds vehicle. I cant understand why it should be held "for collateral" of any of the recent recoverys it is probably easiest to restore and very desirable. Steve

One of the tanks found at Battlesbury Bowl was a turretless Sherman DD -it has to be remembered that DD survived into the 1950s -some even received Post War registration. There was another Sherman DD -a M4A1 on SPTA as a none buried target. The Battlesbury burial probably took place in the mid to late 1950s at least one Churchill AVRE was numbered 45ZR00. I think the theory of relativity is having an effect here- if it is the same tank it was proposed as far back as 1998-99 by North of england military heritage -or a similarly named probably erstwhile group, the story was that they believed they had found the site of a tank sinking - traces of oil-petrol or fuel oil was leaking to the surface. Whether there was a tank in there was debateable -it could have been recovered shortly after bogging down and the leaking oil could be due to the loss of the long range fuel tank off the rear hull -common on Covenanters and Churchill but also fitted to Valentines on the track guard, anyway as far as I am aware English Heritage, the SSSI council and of course the MOD (very sensitive area) were none too accomodating -of course they may have relented- but I doubt it. There was a long standing story (going back to the 1990s) of various attempts to recover a Valentine in Fife -but I've not heard anything further. Another Story is of a Covenantor sunk at the old Midhope ranges -west of Sheffield, but difficult to researcxh as the owners of the site (no names no packdrill) are very pro-active in keeping people off the site -possibly more to do with enviromental protesters though. the story goes that it was a Polish vehicle but no-one has found mention in any of the Polish War Diaries -although I would imagine the original Polish War diary is very different than that sent to the WD -apart from that the Poles were vere street smart -I hardly think they would have reported the loss of a Cov. esp. as such a loss should have been rewarded with a 48hour leave pass:-D Steve

Well it is RICKmansworth:cool2: might be an omen:-D Steve

Its a Kubelwagen Snowtrack (schneketten) type 155/3 see this site http://web.archive.org/web/20090730170305/http://geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/1167/evwtrack.html probably all that is known about it at the moment (some-one has done some research) isn't the internet a wonderful thing;) Steve

Strange Doctor Who certainly used a multi dimensional mobile -i must remember to ask sanji from Vodaphone in Bangalor if i can have that tariff:laugh:

Yes I take your point, the Building Inspector in Windsor almost had a fit when we found an anicent, possibly Queen Anne, cess pit about 2metres from our strip trench- but we were allowed to fill it without involving the archeologists:D, doubt we'd get away with it today:(. I assume you mean Wards in Shefield -not a 100% certain but I think its under the Meadowhall centre, so digging is really going to upset the shoppers in H&M and Monsoon. Pounds one thing certain the ground is probably so messed up to properly decontaminate they will have to dig down at least several metres or it will make Love Canal in Niagara look like a minor incident:-(. Steve

It's in Wheels and Tracks No.15 and also After the Battle Magazine the 3inch Gun Carrier SPG came from a range in Kent near Arpinge. shame you weren't into tanks then probably more chance of seeing even a cosmetically restored 3inch gun carrier than the present circumstances. I was under the impression that the Stainburn tank was recovered by a group from the east coast -with scottish links -but like everything else things are often very plastic- groups form reform but often the same people- i would have thought if Bob was deeply involved the Mk2 wouldn't have that lump of pipe sticking out the front. It might be an idea to PM exact details of unsecured wrecks otherwise it will only encourage scrap collectors -people who eyes are larger than there ability to restore rather than real restorers. Steve

Hi eddy Reading your post looking for old scrapyard sites is either highly motivated, desparate or just plain insane, I wouldn't think by the 1970's the local authorities would allow a vehicle even as substancial as a sherman to remain in a foundation for a new building- even single story, the risks would be too high and things had moved on since the 1940s. Steve

It's a shame it can't be x ref with the Sherman buried under a post office thread as your post links up with the Dorking tank burials and yes the switch thing is very believable -I remember having to re-do a house light switches because the lady of the house -from Toronto had persuaded her husband that the British method was wrong -building inspector not convinced nor impressed :wow:-happily the sockets were correctly positioned.

The Churchill burial was I think at the Thornecliffe factory -where the disappearing Mk7 was, it was mentioned in a site on Shefield industrial heritage which I'm sure some of the Yorkshire-men on site will be able to confirm. There is of course the Churchills re-bried at Battlesbury Bowl Bob Grundy and the TAG recovered the Otterburn Mk3 not the Stainburn Mk2. I was going to have a wander around Stainburn with Eddy and the others but the North east was the first area to get 2 foot of snow that weekend. Steve

Evidenty under a vin yard there were 2 Covenanters a Maltida 2 possibly a Baron or similar and a Medium Mk2. The only vehicle confirmed and recovered was the Covenanter Mk3 now at Bovington. The tanks were used for training for locally stationed Canadian Infantry, abandoned after D.Day they were evidently buried as local vehicle depot would not accept them due to their poor condition and lack of mobility. Every EW is a Tiger -much more likely to be a Type 95 or similar, considering the difficulties they had moving Cents around in the 1950s a Tiger would have been a logistic nightmare. Sounds like a good idea -all the truely mad under one heading:D Steve

Yes, probably the last resting place for a few neptunes Dukws and maybe the odd terrapin- unfortunaetly the ground condition will not be kind to anything ferrous. Steve

Thanks for the clarification -to me the shorter round looked like a poor attempt at an AP Shot mock up -I can't recall ever seeing a Mk2T HE I assume it was more streamlined than the Mk1. Steve

Intersting story -shame no-one has anything on whether it was saved or just went to the scrapyard again- most likely but possible it went to one of the more reculsive collectors although I would have thought in view of the time it would have re-appeared by now. There are a number of stories of stuff being buried around cambridge mainly in cores of levies or dykes or whatever the cambridge term for a flood defence embankment, I certainly can remember a DH Dove fuslage being used to fill a gap. steve

I know i'm going to get beaten up but What:nut: I thought the shells were APCBC and AP shot the only thing that bothers me is the green band (the marker for explosive filled) on the AP shot it should be red/white with the white tip as shown. Surely the HE shell Mk1(t) would be buff anyway with a green band with the composition stencilled on (TNT RDX) and would have a nose percussion fuse No.244 which would be apparent as it is flat nosed. I've got my tin hat on and expect a grenade or two imminentely:-D Steve

Fair point -most percusion cap have resesses for the cap in the cylinder not apparent on this model, that's why I mentioned Lefaucheax (pinfire) as a possiblity for the original piece but could be numerous other Belgian french british even Spanish (star) pinfire types that were supplied during the Civil War period -there are expensive but many still show up in gun auctions. Again fair point but IMO the grease allowed the ball to be forced back on rotation by the barrel lip (like a furniture ball catch), compressing the black powder against the primer, it's probably not so apparent in surviving weapons as wear may often make the ball a loose fit. Other 19thC revolvers have other methods of improving the seal between barrel and cylinder for example one mosin nagat design had a cylinder which moved forward on alignment to "close the gap". Steve

It may be an Allen conversion probably of Confederate navy type for mounting on a gimbal on ships. There are a number of Cap and Ball loading weapons without a top frame which could have been used in this conversion such as Hopkins-allan, Walker Colt or even the French Lefaucheax especially as the weapon is probably a pinfire. Lefaucheax made a 20 chamber dual barrel revolver for French Navy and commercial sales.. The number of shots per cylinder could be 5 making the ensemble a 40 shot weapon. The under barrel lever on the original weapon releases the entire cylinder for reloading by unlocking the cylinder pin- an enterprising "gun slinger" could carry several cylinders to rapidly reload like a primative clip. The barrel is fixed to the lower section of the receiver. In the conversion the barrel is fastened to the main cylinder axis by the fairly thick gun metal-brass riveted section, the weapon would be fairly low powered about that of a .32apc. While probably little more than a trial weapon the "machine-pistol" is historically so well known that the cartoonist Rube Goldberg once drew it in American Mechanics (Rube Goldberg was the US equivelent to Heath Robinson -who also drew bazaar machines from the mid 1930s to mid 1950s). There is certainly very little wrong with cap & ball naval Colts M1851 in particular better accuracy and more powerful than many other civil war period cartridge weapons esp. the pinfire types- and probably very little slower in reloading -although as the old Steve Earl song relates it could "get you into trouble but couldn't get you out" . Steve