RAF vehicle camouflage

[Rlangham]

I've seen this asked on another forum so thought I might give it a go here. In WW2, what colour would the emergency vehicle's at RAF bases (especially the fire tenders) be painted in? The Airfix kit of an Austin K6 fire tender says it should be in red, but the Fordson fire tender I saw the other day was a sort of olive drab, and i've seen models in RAF blue, can anyone help out?

[earlymb]

I think this may be a colourised photo so I wouldn't depend too much on the exact shades?

[T corbin]

Back in 1980 .When I brought the WOT CRASH TENDER  & then started the restoration  I found  the  rebuild plate. It was rebuilt 1952  BERLIN & painted RED  witch  it still carried  until I purchased it   T CORBIN

[LarryH57]

Tony,

I can understand why it was red in 1950's but during your restoration, did you find proof that it was SCC.2 as the base colour, as it appears now.

What year was it built?

[T corbin]

Chase  No late 1941 .Their wasn't much paint  left after sitting in a field 20 years . but  we did find some brown under some parts  .At the time i was going to paint it red. .I also had a lot help from some ex RAF fire crew .After looking at  RAF  Mt orders for 1942  that it was finished in T CORBIN

[LarryH57]

'Finished in T Corbin'?

Is that your way of saying the nearest match to the official SCC.2 brown.

And BTW Tony, we have met many years ago; I remember saying to you how nice your Fordson WOT 1 Crash Tender was and that it was a rare vehicle even then! 
I said "Have you seen the other Fordson WOT 1 GS that was on the show scene?" and you said "Yes its mine" which made me laugh.

But where is that vehicle now I have not seen it for years?

Edited November 8, 2017 by LarryH57

[ted angus]

There are 3 in preservation, Toney's which is with the RAF fire museum ( Scampton), one with the East Kirkby Lanc and the 3rd which did belong to the RAF fire service- it was restored many years ago at RAF Sealand for the fire school at Catterick, when Catterick closed it went to a Battle of Britian museum Near Manston ( not to be confused with Steve Shirley's former museum at RAF Manston. ) TED

[LarryH57]

A quick question;

Going back a bit to the time of RAF Blue Grey as the base colour were mudguards painted gloss black at the start, or did they come later? 

[RAFMT]

They came later, in '46. No mention of them being a different colour in 37

[LarryH57]

Thanks Bryan but black mudguards are seen on pre-war RAF vehicles in some of the photos I have posted here, and of course the RAF Ford Sussex Balloon winch you had on display in RAFM is a perfect example 

Edited November 17, 2017 by LarryH57

[RAFMT]

Larry - The ballon winch at the Museum is in post-war colours

And i assume you are referring to the Fordson crash tender you posted on the first page? If so i have some doubts about that picture, it feels like it is too much of a prepared publicity shot; in much the same way as in certain famous press shots of pilots they got hold of the best conditioned flying gear and each pilot took turns wearing the same kit for their photographs. 

 

[LarryH57]

Bryan,

Have a look at this for example from 1940.

I have much better photos, that for the moment I cannot post here.

I agree its not common to see black mudguards but the idea must have originated pre-war. At the moment my research shows Fordsons painted like this, with both balloon winch versions and the crash tender types having gloss black mudguards. But I have also seen a pre-war Ford Van like this too.

The Fordson in photos on page 1 of this thread supports this too. I agree it was not common place and clearly black mudguards in the blackout did not help hence the added white over them to varying designs.

So any clues as to why it was allowed?

Edited November 20, 2017 by LarryH57

[RAFMT]

I've been laid up ill for the past few days so can't access anything i don't have at home, and oddly very few pictures i have here are Fordson types. I can't see any other types with black front wings in my pictures, but you're right it seems to be a Fordson thing, maybe because it was how they painted their civvy output? Maybe they are being knocked up on the same production line and the front wings came ready painted before attaching? I honestly have no clue, not having noticed this Fordson quirk before.

Also if i recall correctly, the blue-grey paint at the time should be matt and the black on those looks like gloss

[LarryH57]

Get well soon Bryan!

If I get a chance I'd like to come to RAFM to see the archives

Regards

Larry

[ted angus]

Been out of touch  sorry. I have numerous pics of pre and very early war and most of the Fordson vehicles Balloon mt , GS tenders and vans have black front wings. The 1937 AMO states blue grey but no mention of wings  or wether matt or gloss  most pics appear gloss or semi; The Hendon winch is in typical pre war livery  TED 

[LarryH57]

Thanks Ted,

I know that Black front mudguards are shown in photos taken at RAF Cardington mostly on Fordson Sussex Balloon Winches and a Ford Van (and the RAF Northolt Crash Tender above) but I have not seen any on a Tender.

BTW has that 1937 AMO got a number or reference?

As always thanks for your input

[ted angus]

A364 of 1937  blue grey with the exceptions- 1.  ambos overseas white  2 vehicles in Iraq Khaki. 

 A100 of 1938 intro- Armoured cars,  plus armed tenders and W/T tenders operating with armoured cars Khaki.  note BG only to be applied when repaint becomes necessary. TED

[LarryH57]

Many thanks once again Ted for the AMOs

I presume the ambulances that were white were only the ones used overseas? And as for AMO Number A100, the Khaki I guess was the G3 used by the British Army?

[ted angus]

 Ambos overseas only   Khaki   it simply says Khaki  so was it KG3  ?? TED

[RAFMT]

Ted - the Museum's balloon winch carries the roundel on the wing (not introduced until 41) and has painted, not aluminium, RAF letters. So it's more like a slightly incorrect post-war scheme. Although at the end of the day it's splitting hairs really.

As for the Khaki, G3 is not Khaki it's Khaki-Green. Lord knows why they decided to complicate matters with a name like that (I assume they used that name, it's how I've always heard it referred to). Khaki is and always was Khaki as in Khaki Dress uniforms- a sort of Light Stone colour. The RAF seemed averse to using British Standard 318 colours at this time (which is different from BS318 including colours already used by the RAF) so the stores vocabs wont get us any closer to an exact shade. Certainly the photographs show a light colour, definitely not dark enough to be KG3. 

Besides, the RAF liked to keep it's members busy, including hand mixing each batch of of paint; and Mr Angus knows about hand mixing paint for use in the Middle East!

[ted angus]

1 hour ago, RAFMT said:

 """Ted - the Museum's balloon winch carries the roundel on the wing (not introduced until 41) and has painted, not aluminium, RAF letters. So it's more like a slightly incorrect post-war scheme. Although at the end of the day it's splitting hairs really."""      Or a slightly wrong pre war scheme !! LOL.   

  Indeed Khaki Drill  as I wore in Cyprus 70 to  73   was  darker  than Light Stone on issue but after several visits to the Dhobi it was slightly lighter . Happy days. - The famous painting with the rescue of the Wellington crew during the relief of Habbania shows a colour between Mid & Light stone - so my thoughts are in line with yours The RAF Khaki is similar to Khaki Drill uniforms -on issue -     yes and I am still involved in paint mixing but thankfully now only 1/76th requirements 

Regards TED

 

 

Edited November 23, 2017 by ted angus
add picture

[LarryH57]

Bryan,  get down to that Fordson immediately with a brush and can of black gloss and correct that heanous error!

[LarryH57]

On prewar RAF vehicles, they had civilian style registration numbers, and these continued in to early WW2. When did these get cancelled in favour of RAF numbers.

Also is it possible to find where a vehicle from 1939 was registered with a civi registration?

[RAFMT]

Almost all the RAF vehicles (certainly all of those i recall seeing pics of) have Middlesex reg numbers. 

[LarryH57]

Thanks Bryan,

Is there a date when the RAF ditched civi style registrations and adopted new ones - or was it a case of new vehicles and new style and the old civi ones carried on till the vehicle was destroyed, or worn out & scrapped ?

Edited November 27, 2017 by LarryH57

[LarryH57]

Another 'interesting photo'.

This early version of a Crossley Crash Tender (an FE1) was made pre-war and delivered in RAF Blue Grey, so is this an example of one that has had brown patches of camo added to tone down the Blue Grey a bit, but otherwise it is not in Khaki G3 or anything similar for that period? I don't believe it is a colourized photo and I think is from Life Magazine. An RAF Roundel on the nearside wing says this is wartime, and not some 1930's experiment. Adding to my theory is the fact that the 'brown' looks roughly applied over an otherwise neat Blue Grey base and the wheels also look to be their original gloss colour. If the vehicle was half way through being painted I don't think the roundel would have been applied?

 

Edited December 1, 2017 by LarryH57