ID ammo boxes

[dgrev]

Hello

Amongst some stuff I have are some British 7.62mm
ammo boxes. These are brown colour with rounded
corners. Very strangely they do not fit the
MG ammo can holders in either the Ferret or
other mounts.

But the standard US/NATO post war can fits
all of the above mounts and are wider
with squared off corners.

Are you familiar with these cans and why
are they smaller and rounded and don't fit
the standard mounts?

If needed I can take some photos if my description is

not helpful?

Please see attached photos.

Regards
Doug

Edited August 11, 2018 by dgrev
Adding photos.

[Chris Hall]

I used to have some of those ammo boxes. Did the ferret have a .30 cal 1919A4/L3 because that would be a different (bigger) ammo box.

 

I think the Brown ones are H84s and for  7.62mm belts but was used with other ammo such as .22rf.

[dgrev]

Chris.

Thank you for that.

Now I know the terminology I have done a web search and see that there is also a H83 that other than 2 bumps in the lid appears identical to a NATO .50cal ammo box.

But why is a H84 not the same as the NATO M19A1 (I have finally found a designation for it) 7.62mm ammo box?

To answer your question. The H84 fits neither the .30cal turret mount in my Ferret Mk2 or the external remote mount from a Ferret Mk1. Actually, I have never seen a mount designed to take a H84, they are all sized for the M19A1 box.

Regards

Doug

Edited August 11, 2018 by dgrev

[Chris Hall]

Is the H84 bigger than the .30 cal cradle? I would expect the H84 to drop in but be loose. The .30 would have used the M1 ammo box which is much bigger due to the rounds being longer. I would suspect a GPMG Mount would have a cradle for a H84

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-general-purpose-machine-gun-gpmg-turrett-mounted-on-a-royal-navy-ship-69827572.html

Edited August 12, 2018 by Chris Hall

[wally dugan]

Those boxes fit the mounting 7.62mm gpmg no 11 mk 1

[Chris Hall]

Just read that the M19 and M19a1 are for the .30 cal and developments of the M1 can. With the intro of the M60 to US service they continued to use the .30 cal cans but with 7.62mm. Does your green can have marking to suggest where it originated? It doesn’t have British markings. Could be Austrian (the word Aus appears) or Israeli (the n in circle is similar to a mark they use).

Edited August 12, 2018 by Chris Hall

[ferretfixer]

When the Rotating Turreted Ferrets (MK.II, 4 Etc.) Were converted from mounting .30" Cal M1919 MGs. To 7.62mm L34 GPMG's. The conversion ALSO had a replacement Ammo can holding tray.

These are EASILY identified at a glance, as they have a Terry clip riveted on the top left. This was to hold the Allen key, that went into the new GPMG Hard Mount to hold the gun securely.

The .30" Cal Can holding tray does NOT have this clip installed.

The cut outs that accept each type of ammo can are also DIFFERENT Sizes! The 7.62mm Can holding tray.
has a SMALLER opening /Cut out. To accept the BROWN Postwar 7.62mm Ammo Cans.

[dgrev]

9 minutes ago, Chris Hall said:

Just read that the M19 and M19a1 are for the .30 cal and developments of the M1 can. With the intro of the M60 to US service they continued to use the .30 cal cans but with 7.62mm. Does your green can have marking to suggest where it originated? It doesn’t have British markings. Could be Austrian (the word Aus appears) or Israeli (the n in circle is similar to a mark they use).

The "Aus" should be Australian.

[dgrev]

Just now, ferretfixer said:

When the Rotating Turreted Ferrets (MK.II, 4 Etc.) Were converted from mounting .30" Cal M1919 MGs. To 7.62mm L34 GPMG's. The conversion ALSO had a replacement Ammo can holding tray.

These are EASILY identified at a glance, as they have a Terry clip riveted on the top left. This was to hold the Allen key, that went into the new GPMG Hard Mount to hold the gun securely.

The .30" Cal Can holding tray does NOT have this clip installed.

The cut outs that accept each type of ammo can are also DIFFERENT Sizes! The 7.62mm Can holding tray.
has a SMALLER opening /Cut out. To accept the BROWN Postwar 7.62mm Ammo Cans.

The brown can all but falls through the cut out in the Mk2 Ferret tray. As far as I know, the Aussie Ferrets used only the .30cal

Browning. The tray looks to be the factory installed one.

Our Ferrets were very early manufacture. Likewise any British made mounts/trays for flex mount were 1950s production, such

as Ferret Mk 1, Saladin  and Centurion commander's flex mounts. Saracen had the same turret as the Ferret with 2 hatches not the early 3 hatch version.

 

From the replies to my question, it would seem that for some reason Britain decided to go with a non-NATO standard ammo can

when it converted to 7.62mm. Heavens knows why? 

[Chris Hall]

I wondered if the Aus could be Australia but thought it a long way for a cheap ammo can to be transported.

 

i did buy some Ex Austrian M1A1 ammo cans for my 1917A1 at W&P a few years back and thought the markings were similar.

[dgrev]

Chris

As bizarre as it seems, ammo cans from far off countries do turn up for sale here. The supply from our army is sporadic at best.

But as there is a constant demand for them from civilians, the surplus stores quite often import pallet loads.

Regards

Doug

Edited August 12, 2018 by dgrev

[Chris Hall]

The H84 could be to NATO standard that the US simply didn’t take up as they had the old 30 cal cans to use up.

[Zuffen]

The ADI after the AUS letters could stand for Australian Defence Industries which is the main internal supplier of Military Weapons within Australia.

It also exports target equipment to (at least) South Africa.

[dgrev]

Zuffen - your theory sounds logical. No idea how we prove it.

[MatchFuzee]

The H82 is also used for .30cal:- 

https://hatchfive.wordpress.com/2015/02/13/30-cal-ammunition-box/

[dgrev]

Matchfuzee

Lots of good information on that site. Thanks for that. Doug.

[AlienFTM]

I suspect the round-cornered box, marked BLANK, is so that one cannot (easily. Nothing is truly squaddy proof) load it with longer live link ammo.

[Chris Hall]

3 hours ago, AlienFTM said:

I suspect the round-cornered box, marked BLANK, is so that one cannot (easily. Nothing is truly squaddy proof) load it with longer live link ammo.

The live ammo is the same length as the blank. My can has full size linked ball ammo in it.

[AlienFTM]

12 minutes ago, Chris Hall said:

The live ammo is the same length as the blank. My can has full size linked ball ammo in it.

In the 1970-80s, blank 7.62 cartridges had an extension maybe ½" long that folded over to form something akin to a poppy pod to retain enough propellant to go BANG.

Maybe ¼-½" shorter than ball or trace.

[10FM68]

51 minutes ago, AlienFTM said:

In the 1970-80s, blank 7.62 cartridges had an extension maybe ½" long that folded over to form something akin to a poppy pod to retain enough propellant to go BANG.

Maybe ¼-½" shorter than ball or trace.

Very early 7.62x51 blanks in British use were shorter than ball, but that had changed by the late 60s/70s.  Thereafter they were the same length - probably so that they fed better.  As a boy I used to collect empty cases trying to get one of each year from the head stamps (I know, I know).  The early ones in my collection had crimped tops with several crimps a bit like 4th from left below.  The later ones were identical to that 2nd from right.

I'm sure most of you know this, but a quick guide to what nationality the boxes are will be the NATO country code (and this extends to friendly countries outside NATO.  The UK being 99.  British ammo boxes are always service brown, most foreign ones seem to be a shade of green.

And please chaps, unless you're American they're ammo BOXES not CANS!

[Chris Hall]

we get new boxes that are green but are earth brown when they come back from depot.

In service we call them either Tins, boxes or H83s. We used to have H82s but not seen them in years.

[ferretfixer]

On 8/12/2018 at 9:59 AM, dgrev said:

The brown can all but falls through the cut out in the Mk2 Ferret tray. As far as I know, the Aussie Ferrets used only the .30cal

Browning. The tray looks to be the factory installed one.

Our Ferrets were very early manufacture. Likewise any British made mounts/trays for flex mount were 1950s production, such

as Ferret Mk 1, Saladin  and Centurion commander's flex mounts. Saracen had the same turret as the Ferret with 2 hatches not the early 3 hatch version.

 

From the replies to my question, it would seem that for some reason Britain decided to go with a non-NATO standard ammo can

when it converted to 7.62mm. Heavens knows why? 

In which case, you have the .30 cal ammo tray shelf. The 7.62 shelf as i have described previously. Is for the narrower cans. & has the detail differences i have pointed out. The Brits in the early life of ferrets. used US Made ammo cans. & later BRITISH made wider cans to accept the .30" ammo In BROWN paint. Also metal liners to shorten the length for rounds were inserted. To use these cans with 7.62mm Ammo were also utilised. Until the narrower dedicated narrow made cans came on stream into service.

[Mike C]

The green box is an M19A1 liner. It was packed by Australian Defence Industries in Australia in 1995, but not for military use/supply, as it does not have the standardised markings of calibre, packing type (such as 'lnk') and ammunition specification to indicate Ball, Tracer etc. ADI was a supplier of bulk ammunition to both the military and civilian markets at home and to 'friendly' nations overseas. It is now part of Thales, the big French company. The same liner (ie box, can, container, whatever) was used for both .30 cal (.30-06 - 84.84 mm long) and 7.62mm (71.12 mm long), but when used for the latter, a cardboard filler was used on the projectile side to take up the space. Both rounds have the same basal diameter of 12.01 mm. The Australian Army used both 7.62 and .30 cal ammunition right up until the 2000's when the M113A1 fleet was upgraded to M113(AS)4. (In US-packed 7.62 mm ammunition in M19A1 liners, the insert was a complete, four walls and a base, cardboard insert of thinner cardboard. Being also on the bottom, the box contained a smaller number of rounds)

The brown liner is British, packed at Radway Green in 1978. It has all the necessary military markings to indicate the calibre (7.62) type (BLANK L13A1) and the packing type Link (LNK), so linked belt using Mk.1 disintergrating link.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Mike C