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Is it possible that during the transition from the pre-war coil ignition Model D to the Magdyno-equipped WD/D, no proper solution was found to the points access problem....or is there a different spec cover lurking out there somewhere ? Only the LV7 lists might give the answer...are there any for WD/Ds ?

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Is it possible that during the transition from the pre-war coil ignition Model D to the Magdyno-equipped WD/D, no proper solution was found to the points access problem....or is there a different spec cover lurking out there somewhere ? Only the LV7 lists might give the answer...are there any for WD/Ds ?

 

You could quite well be right there Rik. Where is Jan?

 

When I first came across this dilemma, I could not believe that you would have to remove the whole primary side or mag to remove the cap. Which you certainly would if you installed a standard points cover before the primary!

 

But it became so obvious after the old guy told me how it was done. I imagine RE must have either had them made or modified existing caps....like me!

 

Sawing a cap in half is not good enough, without the shallow locating ring. My first one had the ring silver soldered into the cap, but the latest one is machined from solid. Ron

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This is all very weird Ron! I've just checked my documentation, and I think I have found something...

 

Basically there have been 3 different specifications of WD/D and model D motorcycles in use with the British Forces during the second world war: the 1939 military “WD/D” motorcycles (contracts C/3739 and C/4452), the 1939 (phoney war) impressed militarised civilian model D motorcycles (various contracts with “impressed motorcycles”), and the 1940 (post Dunkirk) militarised civilian motorcycles (contracts C/7374 and C/7945).

 

There is no specific information in the model D or WD/D instruction books...

 

The contemporary WD/D and model D spare parts lists (printed in 1939 and 1940, all without illustrations) don't mention the magdyno. But: the combined parts list for contracts C/7374 and C/7945 (first printed in May 1940) was reprinted in April 1941, and this reprinted version (although still without illustrations) now contains some information on the magdyno!

 

Schermafbeelding%202016-01-04%20om%2019.05.37.png

 

As you can see in the scan above, " * Items marked thus are applicable to contract C 7945 only." Please notice that "Sleeve, C.B. cover" and "Cap, C.B. cover" are both marked with an asterisk... Looks as if this setup was only used on the 1940 civilian model D (the contract C/7945 motorcycles were militarised 1940 civilian model Ds, ordered just after the Dunkirk losses!)

 

Jan

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Jan, What is the difference between and L1/O and an AQ/4 magdyno ?...a special nut and the Plate, Drive End - 463989 is the standard item but this can't have made a difference to the points cover clearance.

 

...or are there then any inner chaincase differences on the proper pre-war WD/Ds ?

Edited by 79x100

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Jan, What is the difference between and L1/O and an AQ/4 magdyno ?...a special nut and the Plate, Drive End - 463989 is the standard item but this can't have made a difference to the points cover clearance.

 

I would say that the difference was mainly the contact breakers cover / sleeve plus cap...

 

...or are there then any inner chaincase differences on the proper pre-war WD/Ds ?

 

Just checked both parts list, can't find any differences I'm afraid...

 

Jan

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Hi Ron

 

Love this project, you are sure getting the look and feel of the original. Looking at the original photo I think the problem with the clearance between the magdyno and the chain case could be due to the fitting of a Lucas MO/1 Magdyno as I am certain that the original photos shows the use of a Miller Magdyno. If you Google "Miller magdyno" and look at the images, several of which show a magdyno similar to that fitted in the photos of the prototype. Looking at the photograph it appears the overall length of the magneto portion is somewhat shorter than the Lucas instrument.

These Miller instruments which are quite rare were and used on a small number of machines prewar. The Delux models of the lightweight four-stroke Panthers, the Redwing models not the so called Red Panthers models as supplied by Pride & Clarke, which adopted the cheaper coil ignition set up.

The same basic magdyno was used on some models of the Ivory Calthorpe. Later Calthorpe models adopted a seperate magneto and dynamo set up which was introduced as probably as a cost saving measure as I suspect the Miller instrument was an expensive item, compared to the Prince of Darkness (Lucas !) products

I hope this may explain the reason for your difficulty with access to the points, maybe the factory had the same problem hence the use of Miller equipment, if the factory was proceed with this model into production, they may well have adopted a seperate dynamo mounted forward of the cylinder.

Keep up the good work, it a credit to you. Keep up the posts as following this thread with great interest, what a fluke an engine even survived.

Cheers Steve L

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Hi Steve and welcome to my thread.

Firstly, very well spotted that the experimental model is not fitted with a Lucas magdyno. It was in fact fitted with a Lucas mag/altenator. Again I think it was something of an experiment so as to run direct lighting and save the weight of a battery. The normal 6" headlamp was also replaced with a much smaller lamp.

 

The idea was tried on other WD experimental bikes such as the BSA WB30 but it was soon abandoned in favour of the standard magdyno with battery set up.

 

I think the chances of ever finding a mag/alternator are remote... to say the least! So I am using a magdyno but still hoping to run it as a direct lighting system, through a hidden solid state regulator.

 

Here is my standard WD/D which the EXP bike is based on with its Lucas magdyno and problematic CB cap. Also the WB30. Ron

WDD 057.jpg

scan-160108-0002.jpg

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Ah! Now I have been reliably informed by Jan, that the alternator on the Enfield is in fact a 'Miller' unit. So another gold star for you Steve.

 

And in Jan's words "Even rarer than the teeth on the chicken that has eaten some rocking horse poo"

 

Here are close ups of the lucas and Miller alternators.

 

Learning everyday!

 

Ron

Schermafbeelding 2015-08-13 om 16.55.08.jpg

Schermafbeelding 2015-08-13 om 17.01.15.jpg

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You could be right Chris! I've just discovered that the lightweight headlamp is in fact the same (Miller) headlamp as used on the pre war model RE (or model RB, for Royal Baby, as sold in Holland):

 

image001.jpg

 

Schermafbeelding%202016-01-08%20om%2018.23.33.png

 

And then I found this 1939 or early 1940 advertisement, for the Royal Baby:

 

image003.jpg

 

The text that goes with the headlamp says

Koplamp

Rijkskeur met rijkskeur gloeilamp en ingebouwde droge batterij.

 

In Shakespeare’s language:

Headlamp

Approved (headlamp) with approved bulb and built in dry battery.

 

And this comes from the post war workshop manual:

 

Schermafbeelding%202016-01-08%20om%2018.23.55.png

 

So the LW may also have had a (small) battery in the headlamp shell! So maybe no alternator but a dynamo after all!

 

Jan

Edited by rewdco

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What about the Miller mag though Chris? I've never had to use one! Time to start looking. Ron

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In order to find out some more information on the electrical components of this motorcycle, I took another look at the M.E.E. test reports (see also post #13). Bingo: the test report for frame #101 (the "pilot test") confirms that the bike was equipped with a dynamo, not an alternator, and that a dry battery was used, as in the model RE:

 

Schermafbeelding%202016-01-09%20om%2009.04.17.png

 

And I also found another interesting paragraph about the air filter (which is situated "in" the oil tank, see also post #29). The description doesn't make me much wiser though...

 

Schermafbeelding%202016-01-09%20om%2009.04.38.png

 

Unfortunately the test report for the "production model" (frame #303) contains no such information... But I can hardly imagine that they would have used an experimental alternator setup without mentioning this in the test report...

 

Jan

Edited by rewdco

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You could be right Chris! I've just discovered that the lightweight headlamp is in fact the same (Miller) headlamp as used on the pre war model RE (or model RB, for Royal Baby, as sold in Holland):

 

So the LW may also have had a (small) battery in the headlamp shell! So maybe no alternator but a dynamo after all!

 

Jan

 

Jan, I thought you knew this, I told Ron many months ago!!

 

Will see if I have one left, but there wasn't one on my Royal Baby, it's a near copy of the Hasag/Bosch headlamp fitted to the DKW's of the time.

 

But with so many people converting post war Fleas, there should be hundreds of them!!!

 

Cheers,

 

Lex

 

ps, bummer about the frame!!

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I'm on the hunt for one of these Miller magdyno's. (Any condition or incomplete accepted) Any leads from anyone would be gratefully received. Ron

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I can't remember that Lex told me anything.........Lex Who?

 

Ron....I think?

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Ron, I really remember telling you in September, when you started all this! anyway, I have an N.O.S. shell, it's a start I think, there's no hole for a switch or Miller medallion, will email pictures. Postwar Flea's had the switch in the headlamp I think?

 

Cheers,

 

Lex or who was I ????? (Lex Luther!)

Edited by welbike

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Postwar Flea's had the switch in the headlamp I think?

 

Cheers,

 

Lex or who was I ????? (Lex Luther!)

 

From 1948 onwards Lex.

 

Jan

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Ok, I do know in 1946 they first used up the 7" Millers, but where did they put the switch then in late 1946/1947?? Maybe they used up existing pre-war stocks for a brief period?

 

Just found a picture from Oct/Nov 1947, and that has the switch in it already.

 

I suppose Ron wants a Miller taillamp aswell now......

 

Cheers,

 

Lex

Edited by welbike

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Handlebar mounted switch, same system as during 1939 - 1940.

 

New models / specifications were always presented at the end of the year. Not impossible to see pictures of the 1948 specification at the end of 1947.

 

Jan

Edited by rewdco

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