tankmaniac Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Hi folks. This week i will mostly be painting . . . the scammel. This one's a RAF unit and we have RR services RAF Blue for the topcoat. However... Should cettasin areas have been another colour? perhaps yellow axles and brake line taps and linkages? The unit has layers of paint in the following order: RAF Blue Grand Machinery Yellow RAF Blue Olive Drab (as it was used by the army finally) Our thinking is that it was painted yellow because it would have been on an airfield at some time. Also, the registration of SSU 404 implies that it was first used in Scotland.? Any info appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swill1952xs Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) I don't know anything about the colours; but the SU registration was issued to a lot of vehicles regardless of where they were registered. It was the range of numbers DVLA issued under protest when age related numbers were made available. Being as they are; they wouldn't issue unused local registration numbers. It was from memory a Scottish origin, but here in Sussex we ran out of registration numbers in the late seventies, and ended up with loads of Sussex registered vehicles with Scottish numbers. From memory WV springs to mind. East Sussex was always PM , PN or AP until then. Lovely looking Scammell by the way. Lucky you. Edited June 16, 2009 by Swill1952xs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritineye Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) Brian Carter owns this smart Pioneer, ex Royal Aircraft Establishment I believe, this may be the look you're after. the yellow is to be seen on airfields as you say. Nice to see your Explorer's still PETROL................:yay: Edited June 16, 2009 by gritineye Ted's post is more useful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritineye Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Confirmation from Clive here: http://www.hmvf.co.uk/pdf/PAINTINGpart3.pdf Airfield construction vehicles A, B, and C vehicles, and engineer construction plant when working on airfields should have flat top surfaces, such as cab roofs, painted YELLOW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Signals Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 A lot will depend upon what period you are repainting it to. Ted Angus might be worth a PM as he has a mine of info in the form of original AMO's regarding paint schemes for most periods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I have the AMO and supporting info current for 1955 and the life of this vehicle. I will try and type it up later tonight bear with me TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Air Ministry Order A 32/1954 dated 18 Feb 1954, promulgated major changes to the RAF’s vehicle colour policy to reflect the differing requirements of the different geographic theatres of operations. I am only including the main points from the AMO as applicable to Explorers and vehicles likely to operate in conjunction with them. All colours were from B.S. 381c-1948, second impression 1949: Ready –Mixed Paints. Home (UK) & Far East Air Force; BSC 633 High Gloss Enamel RAF Blue Grey, with canvas also to BSC 633 in bituminous emulsion. Middle East Air Force ( & later Near East Air Force); BSC 361 Light Stone, first finish coat in High Gloss the second finish coat in Matt; although vehicles appeared in both Gloss & Matt finishes. Canvas also to BSC 361 in polyvinyl acetate emulsion. 2nd Tactical Air Force (Germany , Nederlands & Belgium); BSC 224 High Gloss Deep Bronze Green . Canvas in BSC 298 Olive Drab in bituminous emulsion. Previously special markings and colour schemes to be applied to certain vehicles operating regularly in the movements areas of RAF aerodromes/airfields were published in AMOs specific to that subject. By 1950 this information was contained in A.P. 3024 (RAF Air Traffic Control) Pt 5 Sect 8 Para 256-258. a. Home Airfields ; Upper surfaces ORANGE stores ref 33A/ 125- it should be noted that from early in 1940 there were conflicting and contradictory requirements published as to whether this colour was ORANGE or YELLOW ; most photographic evidence from 1943 onwards shows Yellow. b. Overseas Airfields: Upper surfaces in a contrasting colour as determined by theAir Officer Commanding. Note 1. by approx 1958 RAF in Germany and N.W. Europe was reverting to high gloss RAF Blue Grey. Note 2. Notwithstanding AMO 32 /1954; In the Mid and Near East areas many vehicles were in RAF Blue Grey and often Light Stone vehicles appeared in the Far East. Note 3. Even during WW2 some vehicles used solely or mainly in the movement area of an airfield were painted overall Yellow. During the late 1950s this was more common the colour being BSC 356 Golden Yellow. This scheme became more predominant during the 1960s, repainting in overall yellow was taking place right up to 1974 when BSC 285 IRR Matt Green was introduced on UK RAF Strike Command airfields and also on airfields in RAF Germany. Note 4. Along with the introduction of IRR Green, Tactical units including the RAF Regt and RAF Harrier Force at RAF Gutesloh in Germany were authorised to apply a disruptive pattern over the Green using IRR Matt Black. Turning to Explorer examples. 06AH15 first served at RAF El Firdan in the Suez Canal Zone in 1954 finished in overall Lt Stone. By 1960 it was at RAF Tubruk, Libya finished in RAF Blue Grey. 06AH 17 in 1983 was serving on the Harrier Force based at RAF Gutesloh finished in Matt Green/Black disruptive pattern 06AH19 first served at RAF Eindoven in the Nederlands in 1954 finished in either RAF Blue Grey or Deep Bronze Green. 06AH 78 in 1967 was serving with No 71 MU RAF Bicester as a tractor for oversize aircraft salvage and recovery trailers with the RAF aircraft salvage and transportation unit. Finished in RAF Blue Grey. 07AH49 in 1969 operated mainly on the airfield at RAF Chivenor on aircraft salvage duties and was painted overall yellow. Somewhere on your vehicle will be a plate with its original RAF reg number which should be **AH ** The BT is an Army reg number, BT being allocated to vehicles transferred to the Army from either the RAF or RN . Hope this is usefull TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiomike7 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Hi folks.This week i will mostly be painting . . . the scammel. This one's a RAF unit and we have RR services RAF Blue for the topcoat. However... Should cettasin areas have been another colour? perhaps yellow axles and brake line taps and linkages? The unit has layers of paint in the following order: RAF Blue Grand Machinery Yellow RAF Blue Olive Drab (as it was used by the army finally) Our thinking is that it was painted yellow because it would have been on an airfield at some time. Also, the registration of SSU 404 implies that it was first used in Scotland.? Any info appreciated. My old one had a similar history to yours having been at RAF Kinloss on recovery/snowplough duties. The layers of paint were the same with the exception of the second blue coat, and interestingly the wing markers on mine were identical to yours. Is it still fitted with the extra tank for vacuum braked trailers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Good Morning Mike what reg was yours please in recent years I have tried to record individual vehicles as I learn about them . To add to my message last night; in the hot climates, units were authorised to paint white the top surfaces of all passenger carrying compartments. So some overseas Explorers may have had white cab top. in message 3 in this thread the Royal Aircraft Establishments (RAE) are mentioned, These were Farnborough, joined later by outstations at Thurliegh(Bedford) West Freugh and Llanbedr. There was also the Aircraft and Armament Experimental Establishment at Boscombe Down and the Royal Signals Est at Pershore airfield. These establishments originally came under the Air Ministry as opposed to the operational arm of the Royal Air Force. During WW2 the Min Supply+ Min Aircraft Production were the lead organisations with a strong RAF and RN presence. After WW2 they gradually came solely under Ministry control passing through the hands of various ministries during the constant reorganisation of government departments. Early in the 1950s vehicles on these establisjhment ceased coming under RAF control and were allocated civil numbers from blocks kept for HMG vehicles NGY RGX are examples. The convention of RAF colour schemes continued for several years but there were some glaring differences; some RAE airfield vehicles were painted a dull pinkie/red shade. TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiomike7 Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Good Morning Mike what reg was yours please in recent years I have tried to record individual vehicles as I learn about them . TED Hi Ted, it was 24 years ago and I am not sure I ever knew as it was not on the release note. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritineye Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Good Morning Mike what reg was yours please in recent years I have tried to record individual vehicles as I learn about them . TED A very interesting couple of posts Ted thanks for those, I am very grateful for this info as my Explorer's last keeper was RAE from May '76. Under a few layers of paint on the n/s wing was a trace of what I now know as the FVRDE marking, it was one of 6 Explorers supplied to them. I do remember being surprised that the IRR green seemed to rub down to pinkie/redish colour, and in some areas though a blue grey and then a pinkie/redish colour. I took this to be red oxide primer under a grey undercoat, then IRR green. Some hidden parts were DBG. As this was some 13 odd years ago the memory may be faulty, I will see if I have any parts that I took off with the paint intact to check, I don't hold out much hope of a definitate outcome though. How good would it be to have a pinkie/red Explorer with evidence to prove provenance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritineye Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Ted. here are a couple of documents re my Explorer for your records. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) I know that it is always dodgy trying to work out colours from B&W photos but I would say that this shot of a 1955 RAF Mighty Antar shows it to have the same colour for the cab roof, as for the rest of the bodywork, apart from Black wings. Some would argue that since it was allocated to the Airfield Construction Branch, it was to be found on incompleteAirfields, so it would not have come into close proximity with Aircraft, and therefore did not need the Yellow roof. My 1961 Mighty Antar also appears to have spent the first years of its working life with a Blue-grey roof. The shot of the Pioneer shows the Bonnet top to have been yellow, My Antar never had a yellow bonnet, at any time. Edited June 17, 2009 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Ted. here are a couple of documents re my Explorer for your records. Many thanks I believe NGY 583 was also an Explorer ?? TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I know that it is always dodgy trying to work out colours from B&W photos but I would say that this shot of a 1955 RAF Mighty Antar shows it to have the same colour for the cab roof, as for the rest of the bodywork, apart from Black wings. Some would argue that since it was allocated to the Airfield Construction Branch, it was to be found on incompleteAirfields, so it would not have come into close proximity with Aircraft, and therefore did not need the Yellow roof. My 1961 Mighty Antar also appears to have spent the first years of its working life with a Blue-grey roof. The shot of the Pioneer shows the Bonnet top to have been yellow, My Antar never had a yellow bonnet, at any time. Mike few ACB vehicles appear to have yellow tops I think you have hit the nail on the head the requirement was for vehicles operating in the movements area of an airfield. Your vehicle used to work on active runways so I would suggest that is why yours had yellow uppers. 5001 Sqn in the middle east had blue Grey vehicles with black & yellow cheque on upper surfaces ! TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Well here is a turn up for the books, I did ask Tankmaniac if he knew the original RAF reg number for his Explorer but to date he hasn't replied. I learnt today from a contact of mine that 43BT30 was one of a batch of 4 transferred to the army. 43BT30 was originally 07 AH 49 In my post where I quoted from AMO 32 I mentioned at the foot of the message 07 AH 49 served at RAF Chivenor and was painted yellow. There is in fact an in-service photo of it at Chivenor on another forum. TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritineye Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Many thanks I believe NGY 583 was also an Explorer ??TED There were 6 Explorers in FVRDE contract 9870, chassis no 8641-6. NGY 584 is chassis no 8642 (was then snow plow for RAE) so it looks likely that NGY 583 would be chassis 8641. I have never seen this one, is it still about? NGY 587 still exists, same contract, I do not know chassis no. It was also later a snow plow. Another one from this contract I last heard of still working on the Channel Tunnel build Another single Explorer was delivered to FVRDE under contract no 3953, it may possibly have been an NGY reg too. Just so we don't stray too far off topic, here is a pic of the paint layers on a part that was IRR green on release and was over sprayed in the same by me, the top two green layers are very hard to separate in this pic. Could that be pinkie/red? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryH57 Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I remember seeing a Scammel Explorer at RAF Upavon in the bad winter of 1962-63 fitted with a snow plow blade on the front. It was gloss RAF blue over all but I do not remember seeing it with yellow on the cab roof like those used on more active airfields. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 That isn't too surprising. If the vehicle was not regularly employed on the movement area then it didn't have to be considered for either a yellow top or an all over yellow finish. I recall at Scampton in jan 66 to sept 70 , we had all yellow schemes, yellow tops on Blue /grey and all over blue /grey I would say 50% of vehicles solely used on the movement area had no yellow at all; Much of it was to do with the capacity in terms of manpower and facilities of the painting and finishing section. Its a case of; we know what the regs were but how closely they were followed was another matter. TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 In preservation around here is an ex RAF Scampton Douglas Aircraft tug, still unrepainted, since its release. It was with the Red Arrows and it is painted Red overall! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Ah the upper class young gentlemen's special priviledges flying club !!! LOL TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 the "Dead Sparrows"? special priveledges...surely not?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankmaniac Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 A lot will depend upon what period you are repainting it to. Ted Angus might be worth a PM as he has a mine of info in the form of original AMO's regarding paint schemes for most periods. will do thanks. hadn't realised i had gotten so many responses. thanks all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankmaniac Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 My old one had a similar history to yours having been at RAF Kinloss on recovery/snowplough duties. The layers of paint were the same with the exception of the second blue coat, and interestingly the wing markers on mine were identical to yours. Is it still fitted with the extra tank for vacuum braked trailers? yes it has the braked trailer tank. this unit is completely original. toady i ran the pto winch to lower the spare tire on the back. a very satisfying experience! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankmaniac Posted July 3, 2009 Author Share Posted July 3, 2009 Confirmation from Clive here: http://www.hmvf.co.uk/pdf/PAINTINGpart3.pdf Airfield construction vehicles A, B, and C vehicles, and engineer construction plant when working on airfields should have flat top surfaces, such as cab roofs, painted YELLOW. Ta for that. very comprehensive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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