Kuno Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 ..what about the number on the 4th. picture from top? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 (edited) That is the drawing number for the cast plate, the M4A4 glacis plate being made of 3 castings and 2 rolled plates. The LO2569 is the heat treatment applied to the casting. The serial number is only found on the towing lugs and under the data plate on the sponson next to the driver. Do not look on the front towing eyes as this tank has had a single piece front fitted which is not correct as original fitment for an M4A4. The rear towing eyes are the easiest and best place to look. The number is stamped on the top face, usually in the style of 2 rather than 23456 3 4 5 6 Regards, Adrian Edited February 11, 2009 by Adrian Barrell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuno Posted February 11, 2009 Author Share Posted February 11, 2009 Hope that I can make it on Friday :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 My attempt at showing how the numbers are stamped doesn't seem to work so just to explain, they are often stamped as a vertical row rather than in a conventional line. Hope that is clearer! If possible, could you get some pictures of the engine bay? Good luck! Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Kuno, Further to Adrian´s postings, please read Sherman serial numbers on my web page. Attached are two pictures of serial numbers on rear towing lugs; first one is T211 stamped on the towing shackle boss of a Grant M3 Medium Tank. Second picture shows 18903 stamped on left rear towing shackle boss of an M4A4 (converted to Sherman VC Firefly). Hope this helps, would be great if you could get the number. Take along a wire brush! - Hanno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 A much clearer explanation, thanks Hanno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapper Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Men, This and the other Sherman threads get better and better. Thanks for all this information. MB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajmac Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Adrian, Heat treatment of the armour. All that fabrication on the front glacis plate would bugg*r up the properties of the rolled armour, so was the entire plate (once fabricated) heat treated before being welded to the rest of the hull? All Steel castings have to be heat treated once cast otherwise they have mechanical properties not unlike cast Iron :-) Thus I'd presume that the M4A1 hull had to be heat treated, I'd love to have seen some manufacturing photos! I'd also presume that M4A1 hulls were cast in green sand molds burried in the casting floor, I've seen this at Forge Masters when casting 'nodes' for Offshore Platforms - great fun. I've also seen them cutting 12" into the castings to get to porosity and then build it all back up with weld! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Alastair, short answer is I don't know..... The welded assemblies (hulls)were not heat treated after fabrication but whether the sub-assemblies were? In the sadly now defunct AFV Interiors site, there was a lot of fascinating photos from Chryslers M4A4 production line showing all stages of assembly but I have never seen pictures of castings though I too assume they were cast in floor pits. On many castings you can see where the mould has been cleaned up with a trowel but I do not know how many units you would get per mould or whether the cores were re-used or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajmac Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 You can understand why they switched to the cast front on the last M4s, this must have been quite a cost / time saving compared to the earlier fabricated ones. Book. I've just finished a brief read through the 'Sherman Firefly' book by Mark Hayward (a model builder at heart). If this thread or the others knocking around have got your intrest light on I'd recommend it - most logical and 'academic' Sherman book that I've read - not cheap though. I'll send in a review when I have read every word:coffee: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 The composite hull was more for ballistic reasons than one of cost or else there would have been more M4A1s. Mark Haywards Firefly book is excellent and he also runs an online addenda which is frequently being updated as new information comes to light. It is a very good book though and I highly recommend it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuno Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 Ok; the numbers are clear now. Will alos take pics of the engine by (guess that remnants of the connections would be interesting). Measure the distance of the boogies... ...and hope the tank is still there.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuno Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 The number had only 4 digits: 9085 The distance from one boogie to the other is 1,62m Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajmac Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 A visual aid to identification... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 There was no doubt that it was an M4A4 though it is good to get the number. The small plate at the back of the turret ring is a double edged sword as early M4A4 did not have it and late Chrysler built M4 did. It's presence is not conclusive of an M4A4 and it's absence is not proof it's not. A useful clue none the less. Serial number 9085 was built at the end of March 1943 and probably had a reg. number of USA 3060895. Joe DeMarco could confirm the latter. There is a chance that 9085 should be 19085 as there is a jump in the serial numbers, again Joe would know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajmac Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Didn't the late Chrysler built M4s have the cast front? If they all did then frontal ID shouldn't be too bad. Like you say nightmare, when I first got a WW2 armour intrest in the early 90s I would walk around the back of a Sherman before making any descision as to what model it was (M4A1s accepted!) it's the most decisive way if your not looking through photos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Yes, the late M4s were composite hulls, I was just illustrating the presence of the plate is not a guaranteed M4A4 feature as some believe. You have to use all the clues and even then it's sometimes not possible to say for sure. All good fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joris Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 A visual aid to identification... Can you make more of these visuals for the other M4 versions? Perhaps in a new thread or an article on the frontpage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 It's a very complex subject but I'll have a go.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuno Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 Here is the stamped number: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuno Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 And some more pictures: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Thanks Kuno, they're excellent. They confirm it's an M4A4 with M4A2 engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuno Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 Can I summarize as follows: A) Sherman M4A4 B) Production date: March 1943 C) Converted to GM Twin Diesel Engines as the Model M4A2 D) Chrysler manufactured Further: E) Due to late production date the tank did not reach North Africa during the Desert Campaign. First use was only in Italy F) Such type is known to be converted by the French and to be used by Egypt G) It was obviously used for target practising before it was abandoned in Tripoli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polecat paul Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 very sad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Here is the stamped number: How/what does it read? H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.