Sun compass and navigation

[gazzaw]

Hi

 

Does anyone know where I can get information about navigating by sun compass and desert navigation from British Army WW2 training manuals and techniques etc. Repro booklets, info or anything else welcome

 

thank you

 

Gary

[Marmite!!]

Try http://pagesperso-orange.fr/cadrans-solaires/navigation/bagnold/bagnold_uk.html

 

&

 

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/cadrans-solaires/navigation/navig_uk.html

[Marmite!!]

PM sent...

[Guest catweazle (Banned Member)]

Hi

 

Does anyone know where I can get information about navigating by sun compass and desert navigation from British Army WW2 training manuals and techniques etc. Repro booklets, info or anything else welcome

 

thank you

 

Gary

I have not long disposed of all the imfo on this in my big clear out.

I believe A Major Shepherd has covered this subject many times in the books he has written on desert travel.I may have something left in the loft i will look for you.It is a difficut task because allthough the theory is simple

you have to be methodical in your observations,and keep a strict log of every course change.we used a normal compass and made a chart as we went depicting high points course changes etc.Also astral navigation fun but the best achieved was 15 mile radius.i dont know how they managed to get around.We found that guides especially older ones strugled to get things right when in a vehicle.It all just happened to quick,they were used to camel speeds,In there heads they had a map and local knowledge and knew after a period of time they should be seeing x but in a vehicle the whole time clock is destroyed.Contrary to popular belief going on instinct

normally means round in circles.Are you planning something or just interested in the subject.? cheers CW.

[Marmite!!]

Are you planning something or just interested in the subject.? cheers CW.

 

Think it may have something to do with this... http://www.wdrg.org/ could be wrong though..

 

[Guest catweazle (Banned Member)]

Think it may have something to do with this... http://www.wdrg.org/ could be wrong though..

 

 

Cheers very interesting.

[Guest catweazle (Banned Member)]

Hi

 

Does anyone know where I can get information about navigating by sun compass and desert navigation from British Army WW2 training manuals and techniques etc. Repro booklets, info or anything else welcome

 

thank you

 

Gary

Garry i notice from your blog you talk about the correct sand ladders.

I had some a few years ago,they consisted of hard wood strips about 2ft long by about 2x1,they were spaced at intervals by canvas webbing sewn

to form a ladder.One of my engeneering instructors was in the desert,he told me they painted the ladders red white blue,which could be seen when they were unrolled,this was for friendly aircraft to recognise them.they were often straffed by there own aircraft .

[Adam Elsdon]

Garry i notice from your blog you talk about the correct sand ladders.

I had some a few years ago,they consisted of hard wood strips about 2ft long by about 2x1,they were spaced at intervals by canvas webbing sewn

to form a ladder.One of my engeneering instructors was in the desert,he told me they painted the ladders red white blue,which could be seen when they were unrolled,this was for friendly aircraft to recognise them.they were often straffed by there own aircraft .

 

And just when you thought the hardships of the desert combat was really bad, they throw that joker at you!

[Guest catweazle (Banned Member)]

I think Garry must be lost in the Desert Adam,as we havnt had a reply.It was Squadron leader Shepherd who wrote the book,not Major as i posted earlier.

This is an example where being able to edit would be good.i am still strugling to see the benifit of not being able to do this.Stopping people changing there mind?was it such a big problem Joris.

Edited December 6, 2008 by catweazle (Banned Member)

[Kuno]

I have a complete "Universal Sun Compass" including the small manual. Naurally the table is quite outdated since it was printed in 1943. Interesting detail is that this particular compass was originally used by the US Navy at Hawaii (unfortunately I was not there to pick it up...).

 

Would this manual help as well?

[gazzaw]

Lee, CW, Adam and Kuno apologies but was snowed under with work and this exped planning to get back to any threads etc.

 

Will pursue all links and still trying to get loan of a Bagnold compass- I have an engineer and technician who can make copies of any artefact and produce same in brass, stainless etc. Repro is fine as long as accurate and working.

 

Re azimuth tables thanks for info and will pursue. Kuno do you have photo of same?

 

Regards

 

Gary

[gazzaw]

Re sand ladders- have a basic pattern that can be made in canvas (canvasco will make up for me cw attached ropes etc) with pockets to take the wood inserts. Yes was aware of Red/White strips on back for aircraft ID etc and will be painting same.

 

Regards

 

Gary

[Guest catweazle (Banned Member)]

Thats great mate,keep the ropes long enough so you can keep going ,nothing worse than stopping to pick up the ladders,and getting stuck again.very envious of your trip

dont think i could do it again.cheers cw.

[gazzaw]

Thanks

 

Gary

[Kuno]

@ Garry; photos of the sun-compass or of its manual?

[Tony B]

Kuno, if you get time, a articale on the sun compass would be of intrest, :bow: I've heard of them, an idea of theory but never seen practical information. :tup::

[gazzaw]

@ Garry; photos of the sun-compass or of its manual?

 

The Compass thanks Kuno

 

gary

[Kuno]

This is the Universal Sun Compass (1943):

[Kuno]

And a link:

 

http://rapidttp.com/milhist/vol024mn.html

[Kuno]

A German 1942 sun compass on a photograph of "Sonderkommando Dora" - they concluded that the instrument was rather useless since the shadow-bar always went lost...

 

(Photo provided by Michael Rolke)

[gazzaw]

Thanks Kuno

 

Looks complicated against the Bagnold compass. Do you know of any repro Bagnolds about anywhere?

 

Regards

 

Gary

[Tony B]

Seems there still in production though. http://www.ascsci.com/suncompass.html

[Richard Farrant]

Looks complicated against the Bagnold compass.

 

 

Gary,

 

Don't think you have mentioned the Cole sun compass yet. As that one was developed in Egypt for use in N. Africa by the British Army, early in the war it is another contender. I bought a new one in its case a few years ago, they do still turn up.

 

( have not got in now )

[Kuno]

@ Garry; never came across a Bagnold-type sun compass.

[gazzaw]

Kuno

 

I know that Jack Valenti has got one or has access to it. similar to these:

 

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://pagesperso-orange.fr/cadrans-solaires/navigation/bagnold/images/bagnold1p.jpg&imgrefurl=http://pagesperso-orange.fr/cadrans-solaires/navigation/navig_uk.html&usg=__eC16BcIDr1eH9qZ3ub1R6ozq1tY=&h=120&w=88&sz=3&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=yEEXoDnPAYbmqM:&tbnh=88&tbnw=65&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbagnold%2Bsun%2Bcompass%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

 

scroll down page to see it

 

and

 

http://www.lrdg.de/v_suncompass.jpg

 

and

 

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://images.rgs.org/webimages/0/0/10000/8000/600/S0018691_thumb.jpg&imgrefurl=http://images.rgs.org/search_.aspx%3FthemeID%3D3&usg=__DIZDkjYQ1CEEICi6-LHKcVa2Kws=&h=160&w=148&sz=4&hl=en&start=5&tbnid=Awuk67uPcCxtQM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=91&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbagnold%2Bsun%2Bcompass%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

 

again scroll down page

 

or

 

http://m.blog.hu/le/lemil/image/Neoprimitiv/LRDG/suncompass.jpg

 

Commonly referred to as a Bagnold Sun Compass -a variant he refined in the late 20s for his desert trips - it is a lot smaller than any other used at time and had thumbwheel adjustment and degrees etc marked round rim edges

 

Cheers

 

Gary