Crossley 15cwt Tender

[Rlangham]

One of my favourite exhibits at the RAF Museum is this Crossley light tender, built on the chassis of the Crossley 20/25 chassis which was also used as a staff car (see the thread on the Shuttleworth Collection for a photo of one). The first one was delivered to the Royal Flying Corps in 1913 and by the end of the war there were 6000 in service. By 1922 there was still 328 in service, and as well as serving in the UK and Western Front, they were also used in India and Mesopotamia (Iraq). After the war many were sold off, and the nickname of the 'Flying Squad' in the Police force comes from the fact that the London Metropolitan Police force formed the Mobile Patrol Experiment in 1919, it was equipped with two Crossley Tenders from the Royal Flying Corps

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rlangham]

Here's some more photos of the RAFM example from Friday, as it had been moved as the SE5A fighter has been moved to the main hall, presumably something to do with the 90th Anniversary of the RAF

 

 

Interestingly, the modern display board on the Crossley has an older style one next to it now, which correctly states it was a 15cwt tender, whereas the modern one states it as 34cwt several times, for some unknown reason

 

 

[FRAFM]

I thought I'd reactivate this thread just to show the vehicle we're trying to get back in running order. We're trying to improve on the museum's information on the vehicles in it's collection so any (free!!!!) photos, manuals, handbooks or other information will all be gratefully received! A couple of engine close ups attached for interest.

 

 

Ian C

[Charawacky]

Ian

 

Nice 4 jet Smiths Carb, looking for one of those myself.

Is that an autovac type fuel system?

What is the other brass container on the bulkhead - exhaust flame trap/fuel tank pressure regulator?

 

Tom

[FRAFM]

I was hoping you would be able to enlighten me.....

The Off Side container appears to have engine oil and a metering screw and we'd assumed it was a form of direct oil injection for lubricating the top end of the engine. We haven't finished researching a lot of things yet - which we'll have to do before starting up!

 

As you suggest the Near Side is an exhaust flame trap / regulator part of the fuel system pressurisation. I'm not sure I like the idea of exhaust gases being close to fuel vapours so I don't think we will activate this system fully. In any case if we get it running we will have to empty the fuel system before it goes back into the display areas of the Museum so we will probably fit a gravity tank with quickly detachable couplings on the fuel lines so the whole system can be easily isolated and removed (as we have with the Model T)

 

Ian C

[Charawacky]

Hi Ian,

 

Looks like the block has suffered from frost at some time?

There appears to be a weld around the top lip on both bi blocks.

Nice original type priming cups with new brass screw in valve caps.

Don't quite understand the high loop in the oil feed pipe from sump to pump, this is possibly to keep the pump primed as some engines have a habit of draining oil back into the engine and have to be hand primed during starting.

 

When the engine has started, do not let it roar round at great speed, give it a little time to warm up.

Examine the oil guage at once.

If no oil pressure is indicated run engine slowly, and open left hand side of bonnet.

A small cock will found just in front of the oil filler on the crankcase.

Open the little cap on top and fill with oil, then smartly open and close the cock, Be sure to close it.

This is called priming the oil pump.

Oil pressure should at once be indicated on the gauge.

 

The steering box is bolted to the engine, typical 20/25, my 25/30 has the same but all other 25/30 s have a chassis mounted unit, mine must have been change over model when X type engine was brought out.

Also steel water connection plates are bolted to the top of the blocks, typical 20/25, i had to make new casting for my 20/25, the 25/30's are made in bronze.

Your water block connection rail has been cut extra rubber joint around corner of front block, this was made in one piece, I have a spare from Mr Bendall,s estate which may have come off your engine, as your tender was purchased by the Museum from him and he had previously purchased it from the Sword Collection!

I am a little confused by the fan belt drive, have you a special two V driven fan pulley or is it driven incorrectly on the fan bearing boss surface? I suggest you have a look at it.

The driver pulleys often have 2 groves for commonality with the staff cars which had a second belt for the dynamo drive.

If the driver pulley is worn you can take it off and reverse it so the alternate unworn V can be used for the fan drive

The nuts you can see along the crankcase side are for internal oil baffles around the connecting rods to prevent to much oil being applied to the bores, I have successfully dispensed with these during my rebuild and run without oil control rings, if oil becomes a problem later as the engine wears I will fit modern oil control rings to the pistons.

I see the carburettor is warmed by the engine cooling system as I have reinstated with the staff car and works well even with modern fuels.

 

No more anorak comments until I see more images.

 

I hope this is useful

 

Tom

Edited July 14, 2012 by Charawacky

[FRAFM]

Hi Tom

Thanks for the very useful information - keep it coming! As volunteers we only work two Sundays a month and have to look after the other vehicle exhibits so progress may be a bit sporadic. However we think we will have to look closely at the timing chain drive since there seems to be some excessive and inconsistent backlash at the water pump / magneto drive shaft. The adjustment plate / bearing housing looks as though it is already at its maximum adjustment which doesn't fill me with confidence that it is an easily solved issue!

Ian C

[Charawacky]

Hi Ian

 

You can get a new inverted tooth timing chain from RM Fowler:

 

http://www.rmfowler.co.uk/?page_id=112

 

Inverted tooth, 1/2" pitch, 1 5/8" wide, 62 pitches including connector, 1-1/2" WBG Ref: SSG406.5

 

I would think it would be the same as I ordered from him last year so just mention my name and he will advise the delivery and price, He may want you to send the original chain for confirmation of type.

 

You may be able to remove the chain without taking the engine out, however:

 

The timing gears are not hardened so will be indented with the tooth marks and the new chain will appear not to fit, you will have to carefully file the teeth down to the level of the indents, then the chain will fit.

The new chain was a little wide so had to be fitted the right way round so connecting link misses the timing case casting, you may want to investigate using a slightly narrower chain, with the timing case cover off check the sprocket width and advise Rodney Fowler.

 

The engine crankcase and block with all other parts removed will come out vertically but easier if removed from below, if removed vertically the back block will rub the bulkhead. The rad, clutch and engine gearbox drive coupling need to be removed, in all not a big job with a hoist and will take 2 to 4 hours max. Half the job is knowing what to do!

 

I am very happy the timing chain and engine, it runs very quietly now and a good job.

 

Tom

Edited July 16, 2012 by Charawacky

[FRAFM]

Tom

I'm looking for advice. The Crossley has now been moved temporarily to the main Bomber Hall in the museum. There wasn't enough space to work on it in the Grahame White Factory given the arrival of the Albatross and RE8 (both of which have yet to be reassembled to their wings so a fair amount of "elbow room" is required) but we have a couple of months of breathing space in the back corner of the Bomber Hall. We had a bit of a problem with a puncture when moving it from GWF but a new tube has sorted that. I'm now starting to look at the work involved in bringing it up to running condition and need to have a closer look at the timing chain. I've spent an hour looking at it today and it seems it would be best to remove the radiator to reduce the risk of damage to it and get more room to remove the timing cover. But it has the starter handle tube running through it to the nose of the crank case which in turn has the engine mount located on it. This tube has to be removed in order to remove the rad. Working on the principle it is always easier to ask someone who has experience of a vehicle's layout before trying something which may damage it could you tell me how this tube is fixed. Is it an interference fit in the nose of the crankcase, a screw fitting or located by a pin or grub screw (under the front engine mount cap?)?.

 

Ian C

[Charawacky]

Hi Ian

 

I am a quarter of a mile from the garage but having removed radiators from these Crossleys more times than I can care to remember I should be able to remember if that is not a contradiction in terms!

 

Stand with the o/s bonnet open

Look down below the fan

Where the aluminium spigot leaves the crankcase and you will see a slotted screw sticking out at horizontally

When this screw is undone you will be able to withdraw the handle arrangement

It is not an interference fit

Please note the engine in the image below is inverted

You can see the screw as a black speck on the right of the spigot, opposite side to the oil pump

Edited November 26, 2012 by Charawacky

[FRAFM]

Tom

Thanks, that has probably saved me hours of puzzling over it! Will have a look tomorrow as I will be at the Museum anyway.

Ian C

[FRAFM]

Discovered that the screw was missing - and the tube was definitely an interference fit (even though it wasn't designed that way!) Managed to get it out after rotating it back and fro with plenty of WD40 to loosen it then withdrawing as originally planned. Wouldn't have tried it though if you hadn't told me about the fixing method. After that the radiator came out easily - by God it's a hefty lump.

 

I was planning to check the timing chain but couldn't get the fan drive pulley (or the water pump drive flange on the other side) to pull off it's shaft. I needed to get the pulley off to remove the housing shown on the left of your photo before removing the timing chain cover. My small 2 leg puller won't shift it so I'll have to try something sturdier next week.

 

However if the chain is U/S there doesn't seem to be any way of removing it over the nose of the crankshaft with the engine in the frame. I don't have any heavy lifting gear (and no hope of bringing anything into the area where we're working) so that may be the end of the back to running project. I'm hoping that given the size of the chain and the low engine speeds used it may be OK for a while - even though it is at the end of it's adjustment. How bad was yours before you replaced it?

 

Ian C

[Charawacky]

Hello Ian

 

I needed a 3 leg puller and heat to remove the pulley, actually I think the pulley unbolted and I was left with a boss and had to then remove that with the puller.

I have taken the engine out by supporting it on trolley jack and then lifting the vehicle clear. This was accomplished with an engine hoist to lift the vehicle as it did not have enough reach to lift the engine from the chassis.

 

If I remember correctly the chain had 17mm of stretch and should have had about 5mm so was well worn

You can remove the chain and replace without taking anything else off because there will be a connecting link, how easy this is I do not know.

The main problem is if you need to trim the gears up and you will only find that out once you have removed the cam-(a 5 minute job) and wrapped an new chain around it.

 

I think the Museum needs to have a working tender for the centenary years as I cannot get around all the events!

Anyway as I understand it the aircraft exhibits are static or soon all will be so you need something you can use to demonstrate and advertise the museum to the public off the premises.

 

If you need any more help I am here

 

Tom

[FRAFM]

Thanks Tom. Like you we had removed the outer pulley and it is the centre boss that is stuck. I can't use heat because of the location - too many expensive aeroplanes nearby ! We'll try a larger / stronger 3 leg puller next time.

 

Interesting tip to remove engine, if we need to take it out it may be a way forward (or rather upward if you follow my drift)

Thanks for the help, I'm pretty sure I'll be back for more. The Museum is very keen to get it operational for the 2014-2018 commemoration period along with the model T (already running) and possibly the P&M and Triumph bikes.

 

Ian C

[rewdco]

Just found this picture on an Australian website:

 

 

Jan

[Redherring]

Jan, I am interested in the history of the AFC. I've not seen this photo before. Can you tell me anything about it or where exactly you found it?

 

Thanks Robert

[FRAFM]

Managed to remove the water pump pulley with a bigger puller and on removing the timing cover found this underneath...

 

The guide plate has become detached on one side. So as I have to remove the chain anyway, we may as well consider a replacement as it is already on the maximum adjustment. However that really depends on whether we can get a split chain. There should be enough access through the back of the timing case once the water pump / magneto shaft is removed to support the back of the chain to peen over a pin from the front?.

 

 

Ian C

[Charawacky]

Ian

 

A new chain will be split and will have very small split pin at the end of the connecting pin.

 

Tom

[FRAFM]

Tom

Excellent that means I can renew the chain without the engine out!

Do you think it is possible that it is the split pin that has failed on our existing chain? Until I remove the old chain I can't see if there is a split pin hole in the broken link pin. I find it hard to believe that a properly riveted pin would fail in the way ours has. I've done enough motorcycle chains with riveted split links over the years and never had a failure of the factory links or the home belted over (!) one. And never seen a timing chain fail even on Japanese bikes that rev over 10,000 rpm.

 

Ian C

[rewdco]

Jan, I am interested in the history of the AFC. I've not seen this photo before. Can you tell me anything about it or where exactly you found it?

 

Thanks Robert

 

Hello Robert,

 

This is where I found this picture:

http://au.news.yahoo.com/sunday-night/galleries/article/-/8905759/8905768/lost-international-soldiers/

 

Regards,

Jan

[Rlangham]

Quick snap of the Crossley taken on Monday in the corner of the Bomber Command Hall. Didn't spot the Ford Tender in the Grahame-White Factory, is that being worked on too?

[Redherring]

Thanks Jan. I can recommend a look at this (see link above) set of photos... Lost International Soldiers.

[FRAFM]

Quick snap of the Crossley taken on Monday in the corner of the Bomber Command Hall. Didn't spot the Ford Tender in the Grahame-White Factory, is that being worked on too?

 

Sorry I hadn't seen that this one had been posted. Yes the Crossley is being brought back to running condition. We had to move it out of the Grahame White Factory as there wasn't sufficient space to work on it once the RE8 and Albatross DV arrived. As you may see from the photo above the rad is out while we replace the timing chain and clean up the couple of valves which are corroded from 30 odd years of being left open while it was on display without the engine being turned over.

 

The Model T Tender has been restored to running condition but at the moment is not insured to operate in the public areas (car park) of the Museum. It has been run around the back though and there are a few clips on You Tube (search using RAF Museum Model T)

 

 

 

 

It's back in GWF now for "winter hibernation" but we should be able to get it back out again on working display in the Spring.

 

Although not present when Rlangham's photo wa taken there are now a couple of Leyland 3 ton Subsidy chassis behind the Crossley which the Museum intend to restore.

 

Ian C

[Great War truck]

 

Although not present when Rlangham's photo wa taken there are now a couple of Leyland 3 ton Subsidy chassis behind the Crossley which the Museum intend to restore.

 

Ian C

 

Yes, i heard you had acquired those. Go on then, post some photos and we can see what you have taken on.

 

Tim

[RAFMT]

apologise for the poor quality, it was taken with my phone while on my way to lunch.

 

Two chassis, one with rear axle attached the other had the axle seperately. Both are in a good state, having been cleaned and part restored before the museum acquired them.