STUNTMAN Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 I'm currently restoring a fordson N industrial tractor which I'm going to do as an RAF tractor,I want to acquire the correct paint colour ,Im looking at a green oilve drab but I'm advised it needs to be British olive drab & not the US version,any of you chaps recommend someone who supplies such a colour,I'm Central north yorks, thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10FM68 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 What period are you going for? That will determine the colour more accurately. I would be inclined to get a swatch and have the paint mixed up specially if it is WW2 British olive drab you want (SCC15) as the current British Standard olive drab isn't the same shade (it's close, but not close enough for the purist). If you are intending something late 1942 to middle 1944 then you need SCC2 which is close to a dark earth. Earlier than that then khaki green No 3 which, funnily enough, is also quite close to the current British NATO green. Having a local paint shop mix the paint worked fine for me and they can adjust the degree of gloss easily. You can make up a swatch using modelling paints on a light grey primer base. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayT Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 BS381c 298 is a commonly used colour for British vehicles. Military vehicle paint supply a matt which starts satin but dulls down nicely. Goes on nicely without a primer but takes a while to harden. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10FM68 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 But why use a colour which you know to be inaccurate when you have gone to such trouble to rebuild an historical vehicle? It's the same with markings - a wonderfully finished WWII MV and carrying markings it never could have done - more common than it should be - particularly, I fear, with British MVs where there are all sorts of oddities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert condick Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Hi I got Mike Starmer's book mikestarmer18@gmail.com He maybe able to help. this is all I have.all for 1942 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayT Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 2 hours ago, 10FM68 said: But why use a colour which you know to be inaccurate when you have gone to such trouble to rebuild an historical vehicle? It's the same with markings - a wonderfully finished WWII MV and carrying markings it never could have done - more common than it should be - particularly, I fear, with British MVs where there are all sorts of oddities. Why do I know it to be inaccurate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert condick Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Hi I know what you mean, some errors are just..... How painful is this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10FM68 Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 9 hours ago, RayT said: Why do I know it to be inaccurate? I don't know why, perhaps you don't. Sorry, I don't mean to be flippant, but I don't understand the question. But, BS381c 298 dates from the 1960s. A Fordson N would be extremely unlikely to have been painted in a 1960s olive drab. If it had been olive drab at all which I doubt, then it would have been SCC15 which was quite a different shade, hence my advice to get the paint made up. As Rupert points out above, the best sources of paint guidance have been gathered together by Mike Starmer who has written a short booklet on the subject including his primary sources. There is a range of modellers' paints based on his research and analysis which are available: https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/collections/colourcoats and can make all the difference. Buy a 14ml tinlet, paint up a bit of tin which has been primed with a light grey, take it along to a paint supplier and Bob's your uncle. You also have to be very careful selecting the correct colour scheme for the correct period bcause, during the war, the regulations were changing sometimes at 6-monthly intervals. There was also, of course, a considerable 'flash-to-bang' between the regulation being issued, trickling down to units and then being applied, bearing in mind the usual instruction, 'to use up existing stocks first'. SCC15, olive drab, appeared in 1944 to replace SCC2 which is a sort of dark earth. But, photos exist of a TA unit's Daimler armoured cars still wearing SCC2 in the 1950s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10FM68 Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 7 hours ago, rupert condick said: Hi I know what you mean, some errors are just..... How painful is this A mere amateur - this is how it's done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Out of interest - I tried some 298 Tractol (machinery enamel) at full matting base (sort of satin - with automotive re-finish it's impossible to get full lusterless) on some Defender wheel rims , can't say I like it (to me a bit too green for olive) , but it's good to try and keep in mind & I have 1/2 L left - for my needs I would use it again but only as a ground coat that aids finish coverage. A full lusterless is best for a repro WW2 US finish - but it's like blotting paper & people then rub a mix of DERV & engine L.O. to waterproof & stop early rust. I understand the US took great precautions to get their colour of OD consistent, this is all explained in a Jeep book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayT Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Tey restorations/jeep parts sell a 298 in cromadex which seems popular and used by various restorers. It is vastly different in colour to another 298. Here's the colours plus some paint on the back of a bracket but from when I don't know. The truck was overhauled in 52 and then a base overhauled in 56. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 On 2/14/2024 at 12:34 PM, 10FM68 said: But, BS381c 298 dates from the 1960s. My experience is different. The 298 I use matches Mikes swatches and also matches a No 9 aerial base I just unwrapped. The latter is one of a batch I bought many years ago, all sealed. Most were green, some were brown so unlikely to be post 1960's repaint and packs. I have seen more variation in modern interpretation of BS298 than exist in what I have just described. The same applies to Service Brown BS499. In a matt finish, I'm happy it matches SCC2 very closely, others disagree but with brown in particular, gloss level makes a huge difference to the perceived colour. If modern paint manufactures cant always perfectly match each others colours, I'm not sure why some are so sure of the accuracy of colour 80 years ago. I'm also not convinced that when BS381 was expanded post war, they decided to very slightly change some of the colours whilst retaining the same names! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayT Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Indeed Adrian. I even have 298 from the same manufactuer and it's different. It also differs on background and application method. And 2 years later looks different again. I like my trailer in 298 (although i feel its a bit too green) and the snark doesn't bother me. It would however be nice to get a definitive answer but I don't think it will ever happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10FM68 Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 2 hours ago, Adrian Barrell said: If modern paint manufactures cant always perfectly match each others colours, I'm not sure why some are so sure of the accuracy of colour 80 years ago. I'm also not convinced that when BS381 was expanded post war, they decided to very slightly change some of the colours whilst retaining the same names! Thanks Adrian for your comment and I am very much aware that your experience in these matters is considerably greater than mine and that I am probably being a bit pedantic. I can't disagree with your comment: "If modern paint manufactures can't always perfectly match each others colours, I'm not sure why some are so sure of the accuracy of colour 80 years ago", not least because many paints still required mixing in those days. So, no, one cannot be sure of the accuracy of tone of these paints, but nor is it correct simply to accept that SCC15 was BS381c298 and look no further, because that isn't so, even though it might be a reasonable match for all but the purist. As for your second point, SCC15 came, not from BS381c, but from a different BS range - BS987c, so-called 'War Emergency Camouflage Colours' so there need be no direct correlation between the olive drab which was SCC15 and any subsequent BS381c paint of the same name - particularly as, by that time, olive drab as a term was in common usage and described US military paints as well (which also vary markedly in shade over time). But, even with the BS381c palette, there are differences over the years, even with the same number - deep bronze green, for example, has changed from the very dark tone of the pre-war DBG with various balances of blue and yellow creating some quite varied shades, even before application and weathering is taken into account. Things are improving, there is an increasing interest in accuracy, but late in the day, and two post-war generations have grown up with little idea what colour British military vehicles were painted in WW2. Nor, I think, is it appreciated just how short a lifespan these colours had: G3 and SCC2 perhaps two years each and SCC15 four, notwithstanding, of course, that old schemes remained on vehicles long after they were officially declared obsolete. You mention Service Brown as being SCC2, but I have always understood Service Brown to be the shade in which ammo boxes are painted a rich, dark, true brown. SCC2 didn't receive a formal name (other than some vague reference to tea!) and is closer to a 'dark earth' without the richness of a real brown. And, as I say above, it lasted for little more than a couple of years, whereas Service Brown precedes WW2 and remains in use today. But even exhibits at Bovington, where you might have thought they'd get it right, in my childhood were very poorly and inaccurately finished, which was a shame, as the continuity from their wartime colours was lost often under garish nonsense. Elsewhere other museums have struggled. Look at the extraordinary way Montomery's two Humbers have been turned out over the years, both in overall finish and in the markings they have received. One might have thought such iconic vehicles might have warranted some degree of care, but, no, apparently not, 'Old Faithful' spent many years in a coat of sand-sprinkled muddy green! RAF vehicles are another area where things get a bit ropey - there is a profusion of RAF blue/grey on the circuit when the evidence would point to one or more of the SCC colours having actually been applied. And, sadly, markings all too often seem equally random - but all must have a poppy and a large Union Jack! I shouldn't be surprised to hear something from Clive on this subject - I know he has some clear ideas about how his garish (but accurate) green RUC Shorland was viewed by many not in the know! Edited February 15 by 10FM68 spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10FM68 Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 6 hours ago, RayT said: Tey restorations/jeep parts sell a 298 in cromadex which seems popular and used by various restorers. It is vastly different in colour to another 298. Here's the colours plus some paint on the back of a bracket but from when I don't know. The truck was overhauled in 52 and then a base overhauled in 56. I'd say that the paint on the back of the bracket is a faded deep bronze green - which it ought to be if the vehicle received a serious overhaul in the 50s as, by then, DBG was back in as the standard and remained so until the beginning of the 70s. A base overhaul would probably guarantee a respray and that would be DBG. By the mid 50s, the only vehicles which would have remained in WW11 colours would be old ones which had been in store (like the SCC2 Daimlers I mentioned, which were then taken out and issued to the TA), in SCC15 for the same reason or for newer vehicles built post-war but before the DBG standard returned, basically late 40s stuff (including, for example, some Centurions). However, as with all this stuff there will always be exceptions and I can remember Searchlight generator trailers in service in 1979/80 with faded 'Mickey Mouse Ear' camouflage still on their tilts! And WWII 'teddy-bear suits' and leather jerkins remained in G1098 stores long after that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 This subject has been the talked about for years in the my early days l collected swatches of paints from a number of uk paint manufacturers who made paints for the war department from the early 1900's one thing is very clear they all differed in the finish colour some lighter and some darker but all with the corresponding BSC prefix. l could go on but the subject only cause's only more disputes those who think one thing is right and other's who disagree There are a number of official documents on wartime paints covering painting of WW2 vehicles both from the commonwealth the USA and those made in the UK some contain reference to instructions which contradict often held belief's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayT Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Poor bloke only wanted to paint his tractor 😆 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10FM68 Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Here's one post-war from RAF Jever in 1952 courtesy Edward McKeirnan from the BAOR Locations website: The picture above shows the contributor driving a tractor, during an alarm fearing attack from the Russians. Edward McKeirnan, No 4 Squadron, RAF Jever, BAFO 1952 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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