cordenj Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 (edited) Morning all, James Gosling and I have bought a dismantled C15 truck, it was dismantled 30 years ago and put into storage by three brothers in Kent. A recent change in their circumstances resulted in the loss of its storage and it being placed on MILWEB. As we have worked on and rebuilt several Canadian vehicles, we decided to try and save the old Chev. It's quite a risk buying boxes of parts but we could see that the parts had been carefully stored, also both have a stock of spares and took the plunge. Time will tell what has been lost over the years...... Our plan is to completely rebuild it over future months. I aim to keep a blog here to record the process. Here are some photos of some of the C15 parts in "kit form". Edited February 7, 2022 by cordenj 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cordenj Posted February 7, 2022 Author Share Posted February 7, 2022 (edited) The body had been dismantled and stored, but to enable it to be moved it to temporary store last summer it was quickly bolted back together. We viewed and bought it in that state. A few photos showing the very good condition of the cab. Edited February 7, 2022 by cordenj 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex van de Wetering Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 John, congrats! Good to hear James and you are saving another CMP. It was Hanno that pointed me to this thread. Do you know anything about the history of this truck? I presume it's ex-British contract(?). Did it stay in the UK, or was it one of the trucks that ended up in Norway? It already looks nice and smart with all these panels temporarily assembled. I hope everything is there, but I see at least one original mirror and original handbrake cables, which are a plus! Good luck and please keep us updated. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cordenj Posted February 8, 2022 Author Share Posted February 8, 2022 9 hours ago, Alex van de Wetering said: John, congrats! Good to hear James and you are saving another CMP. It was Hanno that pointed me to this thread. Good luck and please keep us updated. Alex Morning Alex, Thanks, yes it would have been a shame to see it scrapped. We believe the truck was built in 1943 as part of the 6050 contract for the British Army. It has several unusual holes in the cab that we suspect were for Artic modifications, but perhaps were never actually installed. I will post separately on the thread about the engine, but believe its serial number matches those known to exist under the 6050 contract. We don't think it went to Norwegian Army, but stayed in UK after the war. We may find more evidence as we work on the panels, but from what we were told this is its history: - 1943: built in Canada -43/44: Shipped to UK on Atlantic Convoys -44: British Army -Early 1950's??: Cast from army and went into civilian use in UK - Ended up in scrapyard at Pease Pottage, West Sussex with small rear recovery crane fitted - Rescued and saved by an MV collector. We do not know if was road registered then, but there is no sign of registration now and we will register it this year. - Purchased in 1990s by the three brothers who then dismantled it, intending to fully restore it. - 2021: saved again... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Ashby Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 Look forward to following the rebuild/restoration. From your photos it looks like a very sound base to start from. Keep the updates coming Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citroman Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 Looks rather well. It that a bomb it has in the back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cordenj Posted February 8, 2022 Author Share Posted February 8, 2022 2 hours ago, Citroman said: Looks rather well. It that a bomb it has in the back? Think so, but not included in the sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon_M Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 It's good that it has an original engine. I've been told more than once that the weak point of those engines was the splash oil lubrication. ( of the big ends I assume ) which meant they were a lot less robust than the full pressure fed GMC 270 type. Anyone have any more on that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cordenj Posted February 8, 2022 Author Share Posted February 8, 2022 18 minutes ago, Gordon_M said: It's good that it has an original engine. I've been told more than once that the weak point of those engines was the splash oil lubrication. ( of the big ends I assume ) which meant they were a lot less robust than the full pressure fed GMC 270 type.Anyone have any more on that? Evening Gordon, I have heard the same comments. But if it was such a poor system why did GM use it for so long (up until 1953 on the 216)? The manual refers to special tool to set dipper height and I've managed to find one for sale in the US. Photos below, and I'll its use on this thread. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon_M Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, cordenj said: Evening Gordon, I have heard the same comments. But if it was such a poor system why did GM use it for so long (up until 1953 on the 216)? At a guess it was cheap, and the block wasn't amenable to being reworked for a full pressure system. You would have to look back to when it was introduced, not forward in time till '53. I'd guess it was introduced in the 1930's when the horsepower and load characteristics were more than enough. Chrysler has the same problem with the 23.5" long block / head on the original Dodge 230. When it was introduced it was 201 cu in or less, and there was plenty of metal between the cylinder pairs. By the time it had been bored and stroked to 217 and then 230 cu in the head gasket width between the two close pairs was only 1/4" or so, they physically couldn't get any more from it due to the original design of the block - I'm sure the Chev problem was similar - inherent in the original block design. Edited February 8, 2022 by Gordon_M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cordenj Posted February 8, 2022 Author Share Posted February 8, 2022 8 minutes ago, Gordon_M said: At a guess it was cheap, ......... I'm sure the Chef problem was similar - inherent in the original block design. Could be. The Chev 235 blocks were introduced in 1950, an while look very similar to the 216, but had full pressure oiling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex van de Wetering Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 (edited) John, Sorry for bugging you with the question if it came from Norway; I am sure you know, but there is a list of fellow SM 6050 contract survivors on MLU.....a number of them were brought from Norway to the Netherlands a couple of years ago and I think all were also fitted with the remains of the arctic kit....I seem to remember when unloading the lot we also found slots cut into the edge under the windscreen to let warm air to the frosted windows in wintertime....but I can't find my pictures at the moment. It looks like some of the SM6050 contract C15's stayed in the UK, while part of the order was sent to Norway...as it seems most survivors were either found in the UK or Norway. I see yours comes with the late style dash.... I can't remember if the ones from Norway were fitted with the same, or if they were fitted with the early civvy dash....as I think the switch from one to the other was around the time of this contract. http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?p=269489 Regarding the pickup tool....I never seen one in person; it seems like a simple but handy piece of kit. Phil Waterman also has a section on his website that shows the testing of the pickups. http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/Pattern 12 Engine Page Two.htm I think if maintained properly the engines should be fine. However.....the only alarming thing is that the pickups could be assembled the wrong way round on the conrods which probably wouldn't help! Alex Edited February 8, 2022 by Alex van de Wetering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Ashby Posted February 8, 2022 Share Posted February 8, 2022 48 minutes ago, cordenj said: Evening Gordon, I have heard the same comments. But if it was such a poor system why did GM use it for so long (up until 1953 on the 216)? The manual refers to special tool to set dipper height and I've managed to find one for sale in the US. Photos below, and I'll its use on this thread. Nice find, that is key to setting the dippers correctly. You'll have seen in that same section of the manual the simple jig for aligning the feed pipes. The problems with the Canadian 216 lube system was to some extent down to poor working practices at rebuild ie the issues you have dealt with by getting the correct gauge. There was a noted tendency for No1 big end to run hot and burn if the truck operated under load on extreme uphill gradients due to oil starvation. As you know the the Canadian 216 lubrication system is designed to pressure relief at significantly lower pressure than the sort of value expected from a US full pressure system. A further issue was bypass oil filtration was not a feature on 11 cab models and only stared to appear on some of the very late 12 cabs. This did not become a standard fitment until the advent of the 13 cab so contaminated or diluted oil would very quickly make matters a whole lot worse. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cordenj Posted February 9, 2022 Author Share Posted February 9, 2022 10 hours ago, Alex van de Wetering said: John, Sorry for bugging you with the question if it came from Norway; I am sure you know, but there is a list of fellow SM 6050 contract survivors on MLU.....a number of them were brought from Norway to the Netherlands a couple of years ago and I think all were also fitted with the remains of the arctic kit....I seem to remember when unloading the lot we also found slots cut into the edge under the windscreen to let warm air to the frosted windows in wintertime....but I can't find my pictures at the moment. It looks like some of the SM6050 contract C15's stayed in the UK, while part of the order was sent to Norway...as it seems most survivors were either found in the UK or Norway. I see yours comes with the late style dash.... I can't remember if the ones from Norway were fitted with the same, or if they were fitted with the early civvy dash....as I think the switch from one to the other was around the time of this contract. http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?p=269489 Regarding the pickup tool....I never seen one in person; it seems like a simple but handy piece of kit. Phil Waterman also has a section on his website that shows the testing of the pickups. http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/Pattern 12 Engine Page Two.htm I think if maintained properly the engines should be fine. However.....the only alarming thing is that the pickups could be assembled the wrong way round on the conrods which probably wouldn't help! Alex Yes, Hano and James made me aware of the 6050 data: We'll post engine number on here....and expect it to be found to be within the range. Id read Phil's section and was keen to find the Special Tools....haven't seen the others for sale though. Puting the dippers on backwards will DEFINITELY shorten engine life! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cordenj Posted February 9, 2022 Author Share Posted February 9, 2022 9 hours ago, Pete Ashby said: Nice find, that is key to setting the dippers correctly. You'll have seen in that same section of the manual the simple jig for aligning the feed pipes. The problems with the Canadian 216 lube system was to some extent down to poor working practices at rebuild ie the issues you have dealt with by getting the correct gauge. There was a noted tendency for No1 big end to run hot and burn if the truck operated under load on extreme uphill gradients due to oil starvation. As you know the the Canadian 216 lubrication system is designed to pressure relief at significantly lower pressure than the sort of value expected from a US full pressure system. A further issue was bypass oil filtration was not a feature on 11 cab models and only stared to appear on some of the very late 12 cabs. This did not become a standard fitment until the advent of the 13 cab so contaminated or diluted oil would very quickly make matters a whole lot worse. Pete Thanks Pete, that's encouraging. Getting the engine right is the biggest potential risk with this rebuild, but I will follow the manual and take care🤞 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cordenj Posted February 9, 2022 Author Share Posted February 9, 2022 (edited) Once we'd agreed a deal the first issue was to retrieve everything from two separate locations and move it to James' workshop in Kent. As I've said, the cab was loosely fitted onto the chassis to enable it to be moved from its long term storage to temporary storage in a garden centre in NE Kent while it was put up for sale. All the mechanical parts had been boxed up and were in a commercial storage facility in SE London. We collected everything between James flatbed truck and my estate car (testing the latter's air suspension!). Once at the workshop we then had a good look at what we'd bought. The chassis and cab are in remarkable condition for a 79 year old vehicle with no rust. We have the small underbody storage boxes and the hard to replicate spare wheel clamps. Only obvious missing parts are: main toolbox that should sit between cab and body, canvas hood and hoops, exhaust. Interestingly the rifle clamp was stamped 1942, but we don't know if that was original for the truck or had been found in the previous 30 years to fit in due course. Edited February 9, 2022 by cordenj 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex van de Wetering Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 (edited) On 2/9/2022 at 9:29 AM, cordenj said: Interestingly the rifle clamp was stamped 1942, but we don't know if that was original for the truck or had been found in the previous 30 years to fit in due course. John, it could be a later addition, but it might as well be original to the truck.....as there are examples of old stock being used up in production, like for instance a mismatch of grille parts on Cab 12 cmp's. It does look like a very nice and straight truck; well done. It's definately good to have the spare wheel carrier parts and the storage boxes! Please keep us updated on the assembly of the engine.....as I also still have to assemble the 216 for my C8😬 Edited February 10, 2022 by Alex van de Wetering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted February 10, 2022 Share Posted February 10, 2022 On 2/9/2022 at 9:29 AM, cordenj said: obvious missing parts are: main toolbox that should sit between cab and body, canvas hood and hoops, exhaust. Drawings for the toolbox can be found on MLU Forum; for the canvas cover hoops I will dig out my measurements and post them online Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cordenj Posted February 10, 2022 Author Share Posted February 10, 2022 3 hours ago, Alex van de Wetering said: Please keep us updated on the assembly of the engine.....as I also still have to assemble the 216 for my C8😬 Will do. I'll take lots of photos..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cordenj Posted February 10, 2022 Author Share Posted February 10, 2022 2 hours ago, mcspool said: Drawings for the toolbox can be found on MLU Forum; for the canvas cover hoops I will dig out my measurements and post them online Thank-you that will be very useful. I've found a pencil drawing of the toolbox dimensions, but also understand there may be a CAD drawing somewhere on the site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cordenj Posted February 12, 2022 Author Share Posted February 12, 2022 Our plan is for the main truck to stay in Kent, where James will repaint it, while I take all the boxes of engine parts back to Reigate to assess it and plan its rebuild. Due to the expected delivery time, very first job was to order a new wiring loom from Vinwire in Australia: https://www.vinwire.com.au/ We've used their looms on previous CMPs. I put one into my C8a and the quality and fit were excellent. The other item that is likely to take time to delivery is a complete new canvas hood. For this we went to Richard at RCH CANVAS near Hythe. He has made a canvas cover for a friend's C15 and produced canvas window seals for the C8a, so we know the excellent quality....but he's very busy and placing an early order was key! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cordenj Posted February 13, 2022 Author Share Posted February 13, 2022 Engine number located and falls within the expected batch from Contract 6050. I'm relying on two book for the rebuild....one new and one old. I used a design from the new book to make a special Chevrolet engine block mounting to go on the heavy duty engine stand. As these engines weigh around 700lbs, it is far sturdier than the relatively flimsy universal mount. Also there is a mass of information on "Stovebolt Sixes" on the internet, but it's a little like online advice on Jeep engines.....try to identify who really knows what they are writing about! Also, checked over the gearbox and all looks fine. We'll refit with new oil 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Ashby Posted February 13, 2022 Share Posted February 13, 2022 You won't go far wrong with the MB-C2 manual. It's very comprehensive unlike the early CMD 11 and 12 cab versions which were much more like the British manuals that expected a fitter to have carried out full trade training. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cordenj Posted February 18, 2022 Author Share Posted February 18, 2022 (edited) Starting working on the engine rebuild: firstly I checked and stripped the head. Valves are all good and just needed lightly lapping in. The exhaust valve guides had a little wear, but I was able to obtain a set of NOS 235 guides from another HMVF member (thanks Martyn). Minor issue is that 235 guides are longer than those for 216 engine, so each one was trimmed on the lathe. Drove them in using a spacer to set the heights. Reamed them all and reassembled the head. Cleaned and painted the block and head in grey engine enamel. Edited February 18, 2022 by cordenj 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cordenj Posted February 19, 2022 Author Share Posted February 19, 2022 While I've been working on the engine, Mr Gosling has been busy in Kent: The truck is in remarkably good condition for a 79 year-old vehicle. Perfect chassis and no rust in the cab. James rubbed down the chassis with an abrasive pad to clean off any dust and provide a key and sprayed it in a suitable British green. We both like "Canadian Brown" for our vehicles, but as this was ex-British Army, and a British contract, it definitely needed to stay green. Once sprayed I went and helped complete making and fitting replacement brake pipes and new brake hoses fitted. All wheel cylinders and master cylinder were cleaned/fitted with new seals. Next task is the cab. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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