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Gearbox re-fitting

The method adopted for re-fitting the gearbox was as follows:

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First the cross members were loosely bolted to the feet of the gearbox. (Cable ties identified their original locations - Front, Near-side and Rear Near-side)

Next the mounting brackets were bolted to the chassis.

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The gearbox was wheeled under the chassis on a high-lift pallet truck and lifted into position.

IMG_3141.thumb.JPG.25e5554f0fa725fe79c593c77b4ef54d.JPGWith a bit of wiggling, all the supporting bolts were driven home.

With the gearbox in its final resting place (or so I thought) attention turned to the transmission brake. With shoes and linkage reassembled as it was taken apart, the pivot pin of the forked brake adjusting rod was fouling the rear cross member. Drawing the brake shoes forward on their pivot pins overcame this problem but created another: now the brake shoes did not sit correctly in relation to the brake drum. Something was wrong.

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Consulting the photographs, I had put everything back exactly as I took it apart. Despite that, it seemed that the cross members might be the wrong way round. My brackets were positioned [ ] The parts book showed ] [ Next a rummage through the 1977 recovery photographs. The back cross member was clearly visible in a rear 3/4 view, confirming the orientation should have been ] [

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Cradle still in-situ after removal of gearbox

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From the parts list - not orientation of cross members in top right view

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The only 1977 photograph that shows a cross member clearly

I was not prepared to drop the gearbox out of the chassis, so decided to change the brackets one at a time with the gearbox in-situ. The rear mounting bolts securing the gearbox to the cross member were withdrawn. With the weight of the gearbox supported by a chain block and strap the rear cross member was removed, turned and replaced. The process was repeated at the front, then all four mounting bolts were refitted. One consequence of this work is that the gearbox is now around 1½" further towards the rear of the chassis compared to when I took it apart.

This makes sense of a few things: 1) It was not possible to get full travel of the gear lever in its quadrant or to fully engage all gears 2) removal of the front driveshaft was extremely difficult with scarcely any free movement 3) the rear driveshaft had a lot of movement in it, as if the front bearing had collapsed, but, after withdrawing the shaft, the self aligning ball bearing was intact. It appears that the shaft was so far forward that the bearing was not engaged in its housing.

Hopefully there will be no further surprises when I come to reconnect the drive shafts. But that is a long way off...

 

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OK, if you felt a little cheated by the last post, this one has more substance to it. General topic: getting stuff off the floor and back on the lorry.  I needed a small quantity of 5/16" BSF sin

A  few parts from ww1. original photo taken from my glass neg. ASC stores 1918, don`t know if they fit a Karrier.  Keith  

Having briefly subverted the thread with talk of roofing techniques and crane envy (which is perfectly fine with me by the way) it's time for another update on the Karrier.  I've marked out and d

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Clutch.

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The clutch required to come apart, as it was seized. Disassembly was in the following order: drive coupling, clutch stop cross bar (with leather braking ring), pedals and pedal shaft. It is clear that a previous owner did not possess a 1 3/4" Whitworth spanner;  the use of a hammer and cold chisel had caused significant damage to the retaining bolt.

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Next the sequence was spacer collar, retaining nut, stop, operating bridle c/w bearing giving access to the large serrated spring adjusting collar. A spanner to fit this was laser cut from 6 mm steel. The parts book makes no mention of a locking grub-screw for the spring adjuster; once this had been discovered (the hard way!) things came apart readily.

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Spring adjuster coming out. When I started dismantling, the engine was stuck with the grub screw at 6 o-clock. 

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Adjuster free. Cautious removal with intermediate fasteners in position. Didn't want a loud Zebedee-like "Boing!" and the spring disappearing into the darkest recesses of the workshop.

The large aluminium cover fits into a register in the flywheel rim. This was tight. Going round with a hammer and hardwood block caused a crack to open up between the cover and the flywheel. Thereafter a lot of patience and WD40 and the cover was persuaded to come off.

The clutch cone and centre were slid off the crankcase revealing a brand new lining material which a little red warning label advised might contain Asbestos. This lining was about 8 mm thick and bonded to the cone. It was clear that the lining was too thick as the clutch cone protruded about 1/2" from the flywheel face. Indeed this took up much of the clearance in the aluminium cover such that there was scarcely any movement available to disengage the clutch.

The clutch cone was sent to Bristol Friction Services who were able to remove the existing lining and replace it with a modern non-asbestos material. They then put the cone up in a lathe and ground the lining back to the original dimensions.

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Clutch cone with new friction lining 

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Fully engaged in the flywheel just a little but proud, but plenty of room for de-clutching.

I had considered a leather lining. The parts list suggests leather was used, however the pattern of rivet holes in the cone, which is a little over 17" diameter, shows there was only a single joint. This would have been a large piece of leather, suggesting a man-made material was originally fitted. By way of comparison, the clutch lining in my Albion-engined Barford and Perkins D4 roller is in three pieces.

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Leather-lined Albion clutch cone for comparison.

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Thank-you ever so much. What a fascinating array of adverts. Indeed the sort of encouragement that is welcome. Have just come in from a cold workshop, reassembling the clutch and ancillary parts. Will post on this when I'm back in Bristol. Now a cup of tea beckons.

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I have previously made mention of the engine being stuck. Over the last year this has been "fed" regularly with a 50:50 mix of 30 oil and paraffin down the bores. Likewise, the various drilled passages in the crankcase were filled with oil. Valve stems and tappets have also received regular attention.

While dismantling the clutch, the flywheel started to move. Some careful cranking while my brother was watching the valves determined that nothing was stuck, though the crank was tight.

August 2019. The Karrier was pushed out of the shed and chocked. A long, heavy, split  belt was put around the flywheel and N/S chassis rail and the trusty Fordson backed into the belt. The engine was hand cranked while the tractor clutch was let in slowly. The belt pulley on the tractor is crowned, so despite the flat flywheel rim,  once everything was in line and the belt tight, things ran well. With a sump full of oil and two hours on the belt at between 100 and 200 rpm things soon loosened off. 

The spring was missing from the oil pressure relief valve. A light spring was selected from the box of compression springs. A steady 5 lbs pressure was maintained - plenty enough for bedding in. In due course a stiffer spring will be required. The eagle-eyed will spot some modern plumbing up under the magneto bracket. A pressure gauge and a drain tap. This location is on the end of the internal oil-way that feeds the timing gears. The tap allowed some oil to be let off periodically to clear any sludge / debris that might be present also as reassurance of flow.

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1 hour ago, Doc said:

The spring was missing from the oil pressure relief valve. 

Is it _definitely_ a relief valve? 

The 1916 White and Poppe has an oil distribution system that feeds unpressurised oil to troughs above each main bearing. 

Number 5 main has a spring-loaded valve that restricts the flow purely to provide a measurable pressure for the gauge. 

We use a very light spring to provide less resistance, and also so that the needle does not point straight down at normal pressure. It used to point straight down, then one day an oil pipe broke at the same time as the needle came loose...

 

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9 hours ago, andypugh said:

Is it _definitely_ a relief valve? 

The 1916 White and Poppe has an oil distribution system that feeds unpressurised oil to troughs above each main bearing. 

Number 5 main has a spring-loaded valve that restricts the flow purely to provide a measurable pressure for the gauge. 

We use a very light spring to provide less resistance, and also so that the needle does not point straight down at normal pressure. It used to point straight down, then one day an oil pipe broke at the same time as the needle came loose...

 

Thank-you for giving some thought to this, and your comments. The Karrier parts book uses the nomenclature "Relief Valve" although the component they describe is on the oilpump body, whereas mine is external to the engine, on the filter body.

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Incidentally the Commercial Motor magazine carried a very detailed and informative article on the Tylor engine in their 23rd December 1915 edition. Whilst they described the pressurised lubrication system, they did not disclose the operating pressure.

For those of you lucky to possess an original instruction book (or AEC owners?) can anyone shed light on this, please?

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Silencer Brackets

The silencer is suspended from two chassis cross-members by brackets. The front one bolts to the cast steel support for the torque tube; the rear one is mounted on the arched cross member with its feet bent accordingly. Both original brackets survive, though the rear one was badly bent. The following photographs detail the straightening operation. Afterwards, both were cleaned up with a cup brush on the angle grinder before being painted with a phosphate conversion coating.

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In the forge. Thanks to my brother for taking the pictures while I was holding the burner.

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Getting nice and warm now. Initial straightening was done in the vice.

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Final tweaks were done over a stainless steel mandrel. The silencer was 7" diameter (same as the Leyland RAF type).

I happened to have an off-cut of stainless steel the right size. Added advantage: the low thermal conductivity compared to mild steel made in-situ heating for those final adjustments easier. Both brackets took their turn on the mandrel, though the rear bracket needed more work.

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All cleaned up and with the phosphate conversion coating drying. Prior to heating these parts were in blue undercoat with just the barest minimum of rust coming through. 

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Steering Box

Another item looking rather sorry for itself. The ribbed structure of the upper half of the steering box has formed a water trap. 40 years on and the rust had returned. One stubborn bolt refused to budge, so was drilled out. First wash revealed nothing particularly scary. Shafts run in hardened steel bushes. Ball thrust bearings were fitted either side of the worm. Everything was washed in paraffin, de-rusted with a variety of wire brushes of different sizes. Phosphate conversion coating was applied prior to painting.

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Steering box removed from the chassis

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Bolts removed. Stubborn one drilled and punched out, cover off, revealing the innards.

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After first wash. (Image has decided to rotate itself - who knows why!)

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Phosphate conversion coating.IMG_3328.thumb.JPG.9d7ebeaf6113eaeb5102a37853016810.JPG

Red oxide primer, second coat. Cold night in the painting shed, so brought parts into the warm to dry.IMG_3330.thumb.JPG.2054554e59c6e7095e4ebca6a260b4d0.JPG

Under coat.IMG_3358.thumb.JPG.c4515045baea7775659bfea92e5b5d15.JPG

Reassembly commences: Steering segment, shaft and bushes in place.IMG_3359.thumb.JPG.5a439becc4772f42ea3513f6a5575981.JPG

Followed by worm, steering column shaft and ball thrusts.IMG_3360.thumb.JPG.5fbc7e119a02c0327901f7fe351b8ec6.JPG

Top half of casing in placeIMG_3365.thumb.JPG.41e93e90da6a9a61ae46a5f1a6573af6.JPG

And finally the steering column.

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On 1/19/2020 at 6:44 PM, Runflat said:

Hey, it's broken cover at last.  One of my favourite WW1 3 tonners.  Ex Sutcliffe at one stage.

You'll probably know of the other (incomplete) chassis: 

 

 

Ed,

I noticed the following statement in your 2008 topic (bold emphasis mine):

Chassis is in very good order having been kept dry all its life, not sure where to look for a chassis number - any ideas? There is one small brass plate on the prop shaft tube relating to a patent if I remember correctly. I believe axles are in their original locations but it looks like 2' has been chopped off chassis just behind rear spring hangers. Don't now why as wooden body extends beyond this.

Any chance you can look out the patent number from the brass plate? While you're there, can you confirm the orientation of the bung for oiling the prop-shaft front bearing? See attached photographs... IMG_0149.thumb.JPG.74ddd871c3ac049b11c63767d834971c.JPG

Oil bung #11077 shown at topIMG_3032.thumb.JPG.faf03d2cacf39c0c63cb86ff526d47c6.JPG

My oil bung (removed in this picture) at the four o-clock position.

Has there been a clarity / artistic license decision in the parts list, or is my torque tube orientation incorrect? Perhaps when I remove this part there may be witness marks visible on the spherical head.

Thanks

Doc

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11 minutes ago, Doc said:

Ed,

I noticed the following statement in your 2008 topic (bold emphasis mine):

Chassis is in very good order having been kept dry all its life, not sure where to look for a chassis number - any ideas? There is one small brass plate on the prop shaft tube relating to a patent if I remember correctly. I believe axles are in their original locations but it looks like 2' has been chopped off chassis just behind rear spring hangers. Don't now why as wooden body extends beyond this.

Any chance you can look out the patent number from the brass plate? While you're there, can you confirm the orientation of the bung for oiling the prop-shaft front bearing? See attached photographs... IMG_0149.thumb.JPG.74ddd871c3ac049b11c63767d834971c.JPG

Oil bung #11077 shown at topIMG_3032.thumb.JPG.faf03d2cacf39c0c63cb86ff526d47c6.JPG

My oil bung (removed in this picture) at the four o-clock position.

Has there been a clarity / artistic license decision in the parts list, or is my torque tube orientation incorrect? Perhaps when I remove this part there may be witness marks visible on the spherical head.

Thanks

Doc

Hi, I'll try and have a closer look this weekend. It's buried in the back of a barn currently. 

Regards. Ed. 

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Ed,

Thank-you.

My torque tube has two small holes about two inches apart - must have had a similar brass plate. No doubt the rust got behind it and forced it off. Any chance of a rubbing of the plate? Perhaps I could get a reproduction one made.

I do have this plate from the near-side chassis rail:

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The corners are damaged so I've soft soldered it to a brass backing plate to allow me to re-fit it to the chassis.

Doc.

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Diane Carney does reproduction or new Plates for us - she is really brilliant. We can usually supply the Artwork for them but I think that she will do that as well. Our good friend Andy C does the Artwork for us - he is an expert and really delights in doing it - gets great pleasure from it.

Tony

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2 hours ago, Minesweeper said:

Diane Carney does reproduction or new Plates for us - she is really brilliant. We can usually supply the Artwork for them but I think that she will do that as well. Our good friend Andy C does the Artwork for us - he is an expert and really delights in doing it - gets great pleasure from it.

Tony

Thank-you for the recommendation. If you can PM me Diane's contact details that would be great.

I'm now curious to know what patent details are referenced on the plate. Am wondering if it relates to Spurrier's torque tube patent GB190316919 (Lancashire Steam Motor Company, Leyland). Time will tell...1340058807_GB190316919Fig1.thumb.JPG.8834ce1f505a8078a815d44bcb32e0d1.JPG

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So I was hunting around online and came across this short video  clip: 

https://www.pond5.com/stock-footage/item/87607821-dennis-and-karrier-trucks-parked-road-1918

This rang some bells... going back through some of the "Motor Traction" adverts on Page 1 of this thread, there's an advert for reconditioned AEC, Karrier and Dennis lorries, from which I've clipped a paragraph (below):

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Advert is from September 6th, 1920. 

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Valve chest covers.

Earlier engines were fitted with cast iron valve chest covers, but by the time my engine, #6616 had been built these had given way to pressed steel. Cost reduction is not just a modern phenomenon. The rust moth laid her eggs on them and it seems most hatched! That said, there was enough metal present to make one out of the remains of the two. The second will need to be made from scratch. Many thanks to Stuart for changing the gas on the TIG welder from Ar to Ar/CO2 mix and staying late after work to do the welding for me.

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Rotten corner excised from the "good" valve chest cover.

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Donor and remains

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Copper heat sinks clamped in place

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First tack welds

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Nice neat weld under trying circumstances - thanks, Stuart!

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After fettling with the Dremel

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Weld peened with a blunted dot punch to blend it in to the rust pitted substrate.

Note there's two folded handles required. These were rivetted into position (rivet holes visible in this picture.

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So, via a circuitous route, I've been introduced to Geoff Lumb from Huddersfield. Whilst we have yet to meet, we've had long conversations by telephone. He's clearly spent an awful long time immersed in all things Clayton & Co and Karrier. Geoff was present when my lorry was recovered from Manor Farm in 1977. In the photograph below, he's the gentleman on the right of the picture. Does anyone recognise any of the other faces?IMG_0145.thumb.JPG.abf9b6fd06c928412f0d07166aa7fb7d.JPG

Am feeling extremely grateful right now as Geoff has sent me this drawing of a "Petrol Motor Lurry To Carry 4 Tons" based on the Karrier chassis, and given me permission to reproduce the drawing here.

Not only is the drawing fully dimensioned, but it also indicates the different timbers used in the construction, including Ash, Oak, Birch and Red Deal.

I have re-drawn the lurry body in Autocad and superimposed it on the drawing of my chassis. The chassis length in this drawing matches mine! This is the first concrete evidence I have found of different chassis lengths. Also reassuring that when my chassis was repaired all those years ago, it was done to the original specification.

Just look at the sizes of the timbers: Longitudinal Runners 6" x 3" x 10'9" long. Floorboards 1.1/2" thick Red Deal. Front Bolster 3" x 11.1/2" x 6'6", Rear Bolster 3" x 12.7/8" x 6'6" Headboard has 3 off 7" x 1" x 78" Oak planks and 1 off 9" x 2" Ash Rail. I assume that all other framing was Ash.

Note: the body slopes up towards the back by 1.3/8" or approximately 1 degree. Curious. IMG_0159.thumb.JPG.4acb9a1c0683588248ed3ee5fd5b372b.JPG

Am also working on a Solidworks 3d cad model of the body which may appear on here in due course.

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