Joris Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Operation Market Garden... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeEnfield Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Operation Market Garden... Thanks for the (gentle) reminder. :tup: Respects to those who made it back,..........Rememberance to those who did not. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 If you can find it read Pinto's book Spycatcher. He has intersting things to say about Operation Market Garden and the betrayal of the landing grounds to the Germans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeEnfield Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 I've a copy of Robert Kershaw's 'It never snows in september', sitting on my 'to read' pile. Anyone any opinions on it ?? (will still read mine, but interested to hear others views, etc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joris Posted September 18, 2007 Author Share Posted September 18, 2007 Drove by chance past Ginkel Heath today, the highway was blocked so I took the alternative route. Then I remembered that it was EXACTLY 63 years ago that the 4th Brigade landed on the heath, they landed around 3pm and I was there around 5pm. So I pulled over and walked to the monument and had my own small ceremony. As it is now (pics not taken today but 2 years ago, nothing has changed since): http://nieuwint.net/ww2/images/stories/albums/battlefields/market_garden/arnhem_dz/mini-Ede_DZ-Y_Monument_2.jpg[/img] http://nieuwint.net/ww2/images/stories/albums/battlefields/market_garden/arnhem_dz/mini-Ede_DZ-Y_Monument_3.jpg[/img] http://nieuwint.net/ww2/images/stories/albums/battlefields/market_garden/arnhem_dz/mini-Ede_DZ-Y_2.jpg[/img] @TonyB, read about the alleged betrayel but I don't believe it. If the Germans knew the allies would have been defeated massively. As it turned out it battle was lost but could have been won if they only were a tiny bit more lucky. - If the bridge at son wasn't blown - If the 508th PIR moved out to seize the Nijmegen bridge at once an not after 8 hours because of lousy orders - If there was less or no fog in England - If the word had gotten though the Nijmegen railwaybridge was captured, it was captured hours before the road bridge and the famous "tea" incident. - If the 1st Para batalion did not stop in Oosterbeek on the night of the 17th because of too much brass looking over their shoulder. - If XXXcorps moved a bit more aggresively (and at night). - If a small force of germans were not exercizing in the woods close to the dropzone I agree the allies had their lucky breaks too: - Bridge at Nijmegen which failed to explode - Bridge at Arnhem taken right after the 10thSS recon brigade crossed it (what if they had bumped into each other) - German attack on newly built Son bailey bridge defeated with a ragtag force - A bridge over the Maas-Waal canal was captured intact - German attack on LZ at Nijmegen defeated - Battle for Best won (only after reinforcements arrived from the air, right in time). etc etc Imo there was no betrayal, if there was the germans made a huge cockup of of it... @LeeEnfield, it's on my to-read list too!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 Pinto is sure that a Dutch civilian warned the Germans of a landing, he names the guy but I can't find the book at the moment!! There were a lot of communications problems, the Dutch MOD did an exercise in the last couple of years with the same type of sets and still had the same problems. British Wireless intercept units Y Service attached to 30 corps had intelligence that German heavy forces were in the area, but what happened to this intelligence I don't know. After the surrender at Arnhem, British Y service operators did intercept signals claiming to be from a cut off unit, subsequently by slipping in German procedures and codes it was decided the massages were false. They also directly contacted the Germans at one stage to try and arrange evacuation of wounded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joris Posted September 18, 2007 Author Share Posted September 18, 2007 He was called Christiaan Antonius Lindemans, or King Kong. In the Market Garden Then and Now books it is said that it was not possible to hand down the intelligence on the 9th and 10th SS divisions to 1st a/b division because that might give the Ultra interceptions away. It was told to Montgommery but he deceided to disregard it, he could not stop the entire operation on a few Ultra intercepts. There was too much pressure to get this one started after all the cancelled plans during the summer of 1944. Imho the worst concept of Market Garden was that the ground forces did not commence until 1pm on september 17th. Imagine what could have happened if XXXcorps had 5 more hours of daylight to fight in. They would have reaced Eindhoven / Son and not stopped in Valkenswaard. Ah well, the What Ifs of hindsight.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 Great work Joris and thanks for posting and we should organise an HMVF tour over there with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 Thanks Joris, your'e right anything would have been done to protect Ultra. This is one of the HRO reciver sets from Phil Webb's QLR the sole remaning Y service vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapper Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 quality items - great thread chaps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeEnfield Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 quality items - great thread chaps Agreed, Its threads such as this that raise the whole profile of HMVF. Many thanks, to all. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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