WWI vehicle wiring

[andypugh]

I should probably have asked this before rewiring the vehicle, but...

Does anyone have any original WWI vehicle wiring on their vehicles? I am curious as to how it was done.

I realise that electrical lighting was very much in it infancy at the time.

 

I recently rewired a 1916 Fire Engine, supplied from the factory with electrical lighting. However all trace of the original wiring has disappeared, so I don't know what style of wiring terminal block was used. I can even imagine that they strung bare copper on porcelain insulators.

 

I ended up making a specifically-designed wiring board that _could_ have been made in 1916, though they would have had to use Vulcanite rather than Delrin.

 

[Charawacky]

Hello Andy

 

Although still in its infancy I think they may have been a bit further advanced than you may have been thinking

Here are some wiring details from a 1912 Rotax Catalogue.

 

 

If you need the full catalogue for restoration work I can email it (41 pages)

 

Tom

[Richard Peskett]

The majority of commercial vehicles from this period simply do not have electrics unless its a car based derivative. As always there are exceptions. The use on fire engines was more common place as Tom's catalogue shows, beyond that Daimler at Coventry more or less fitted as standard dynamo lighting to there range of 3 ton buses /lorries models 'CC' and 'CD' 1912/14 using a gear driven dynamo, probably of CAV or Brolt manufacture and most of these also had dual ignition. The other exception is the London General bus fleet. From 1912 onwards experiments were carried out on electric lighting and in the main successful resulting in virtually their entire fleet of almost 3000 vehicles being fitted with electric lighting by 1914. A variety of makes were used but the friction driven dynamo off of the flywheel was common practice.

Electric starters for heavy vehicles was still then some way off. One of the earliest examples I have found is that there is provision for an electric starter moter made in the crankcase construction of the USA class 'B' Liberty truck 1917. Many years ago I bought a 1937 A.E.C. Matador ( the pre war goods version not the WW2 type) fitted with a 6 cylinder petrol engine, had provision for electric stater motor but had never had one fitted. ( cost implication ! ). Further , a problem with fitting diesel engines to buses/goods chassis in the late 1920s was the provision of a good enough starter motor.

Richard Peskett.

[andypugh]

If you need the full catalogue for restoration work I can email it (41 pages)

 

Ooh! Yes please, that would be fascinating.

[andypugh]

The majority of commercial vehicles from this period simply do not have electrics unless its a car based derivative. As always there are exceptions.

Indeed, LP8389 our 1916 Dennis fire engine was supplied with electrical lighting. We believe it was originally a 4V system, but is currently 12V. There is no evidence that a dynamo was ever fitted, she has always run a total-loss system.

[Lauren Child]

Indeed, LP8389 our 1916 Dennis fire engine was supplied with electrical lighting. We believe it was originally a 4V system, but is currently 12V. There is no evidence that a dynamo was ever fitted, she has always run a total-loss system.

 

I'd imagine it had some good advantages against carbide lamps if you could keep the batteries going. Not releasing explosive gas when wet for a start. Would it be using rechargeable (lead acid?) batteries or dry cells that would need a supply chain?

[Richard Farrant]

I'd imagine it had some good advantages against carbide lamps if you could keep the batteries going. Not releasing explosive gas when wet for a start. Would it be using rechargeable (lead acid?) batteries or dry cells that would need a supply chain?

 

Guess they would have been rechargeable accumulators, same as people were using at home to power their wireless sets at the time.

[g0ozs]

Richard

 

The arrival of domestic Wireless in the UK and the accumulator charging business was slightly after 1916 - the first 2MT broadcasts by Marconi at Writtle began on 14th February 1922 under the direction of Captain P.P. Eckersley following a one-off broadcast by Dame Nellie Melba from the Marconi works at Chelmsford in 1920, and the BBC began at Savoy Place in London during 1923 with the same P.P. Eckersley as chief engineer.

 

Regards

 

Iain

[Richard Farrant]

Richard

 

The arrival of domestic Wireless in the UK and the accumulator charging business was slightly after 1916 - the first 2MT broadcasts by Marconi at Writtle began on 14th February 1922 under the direction of Captain P.P. Eckersley following a one-off broadcast by Dame Nellie Melba from the Marconi works at Chelmsford in 1920, and the BBC began at Savoy Place in London during 1923 with the same P.P. Eckersley as chief engineer.

 

Regards

 

Iain

 

 

Hi Iain,

It seems I was a few years out on my timeline of home wireless. But accumulators were around from the 1890's and around the turn of the century used in the telephone and telegram system. The first electric starter on a vehicle was introduced in 1916, according to Exide who were forerunners in the manufacture of accumulators.

[andypugh]

Would it be using rechargeable (lead acid?) batteries or dry cells that would need a supply chain?

I hadn't previously considered the possibility that they might have used primary cells rather than accumulators.

I suppose it is possible that originally the lights ran from readily-available radio batteries. However the fire station would almost certainly have had mains electricity and have been capable of charging accumulators.

 

Interestingly, what is claimed to be the longest-burning light bulb in the world is in a fire station.

http://www.centennialbulb.org

[nz2]

Can I get a clarification on this point made;

"I'd imagine it had some good advantages against carbide lamps if you could keep the batteries going. Not releasing explosive gas when wet for a start."

 

Have used carbide lamps extensively in my younger days when actively caving, I can't follow that thread and reference to the gas when wet. Acetylene gas is easy to work with, add water to the carbide, light the gas at the jet and you have light. As long as all joints are sealed then no problems. The type of pressure being dealt with is low so the explosive risk is low. Given a suitable large reflector a carbide lightcan become a good spotlight. Admittedly not as fast to start as turning on a switch.

I'm looking forward in setting up acetylene lamps on our vehicles. That smell of the gas brings back memories.

Doug

[Lauren Child]

Can I get a clarification on this point made;

"I'd imagine it had some good advantages against carbide lamps if you could keep the batteries going. Not releasing explosive gas when wet for a start."

 

Have used carbide lamps extensively in my younger days when actively caving, I can't follow that thread and reference to the gas when wet. Acetylene gas is easy to work with, add water to the carbide, light the gas at the jet and you have light. As long as all joints are sealed then no problems. The type of pressure being dealt with is low so the explosive risk is low. Given a suitable large reflector a carbide lightcan become a good spotlight. Admittedly not as fast to start as turning on a switch.

I'm looking forward in setting up acetylene lamps on our vehicles. That smell of the gas brings back memories.

Doug

 

It's more of a problem (to my thinking) of logistics. I can't imagine it was very easy to transport and store calcium carbide in quantity in the sort of conditions that were experienced in ww1.

 

I'd imagine damage in-use was a concern as well though.

[Richard Farrant]

Can I get a clarification on this point made;

"I'd imagine it had some good advantages against carbide lamps if you could keep the batteries going. Not releasing explosive gas when wet for a start."

 

Have used carbide lamps extensively in my younger days when actively caving, I can't follow that thread and reference to the gas when wet. Acetylene gas is easy to work with, add water to the carbide, light the gas at the jet and you have light. As long as all joints are sealed then no problems. The type of pressure being dealt with is low so the explosive risk is low. Given a suitable large reflector a carbide lightcan become a good spotlight. Admittedly not as fast to start as turning on a switch.

I'm looking forward in setting up acetylene lamps on our vehicles. That smell of the gas brings back memories.

Doug

 

Doug,

Way back when I was an apprentice at an agricultural engineers, they stocked Carbide in tins. It was for bird scarers. I do not recollect the pressure they worked at, but they made a big bang!

[andypugh]

It's more of a problem (to my thinking) of logistics. I can't imagine it was very easy to transport and store calcium carbide in quantity in the sort of conditions that were experienced in ww1.

 

Compared to high explosives and mustard gas?

 

As another caver (not quite ex-caver yet) I can say that acetylene light is fairly easy to live with, and some of the large old vehicle lights are extremely bright. The smell of acetylene is strong enough that you pretty quickly realise when you have a leak.

In some ways that thing that makes acetylene good for caving (that you can easily carry a lot of extra light) would be good for long-distance motoring, but for a fire engine that probably only ever needs to drive 5 miles then one less thing to have to fettle before being able to set off.

[Lauren Child]

Compared to high explosives and mustard gas?

 

No, compared with electric batteries or local recharge of an accumulator.

[BenHawkins]

The main advantage of the electric lights for fire brigade work was that the time to get the fire engine out of the station was reduced (no need to light the lamps). All the stations were fitted with charging sets.

 

London fire engines were not expected to travel long distances to fires, but rural brigades would usually have carbide lamps as well or instead of electric lamps.

[nz2]

The point is raised as to storage of carbide in war conditions. This would be kept in bulk at storage depots back from the lines and supplied to vehicles as required.

The pressure of acetylene being produced is low, and I recall while caving when having problems with lamps not sealing correctly and leaking gas, the cure was to smother the effected area with silt. That fixed the problem.

Also here we are looking over the progression of development. Go back a few years before and the delay in fighting fires was longer as the steam boiler was requiring time to gain full pressure. This was only about 5 minutes as the fire was always smoldering with the water hot. Also catch the horses and attach them to the harness.

Yes, a petrol powered engine would be faster, once it was started. Petrol into priming cups, ignition set to the right position, then crank. I recall talking to an old fire brigade member here in town who joined the brigade as a teenager and his job was to crank start the engine. There were times when it did not go and the brigade was very late in getting to the fire.

Doug

[Richard Peskett]

Further to the Exide claim that the electric starter was introduced in 1916 I think they were about much before this, Herewith extract from the 1913 Olympia show listings and Brolt were offering what today we think of as a normal type of electric starter with ring gear and motor rather than a friction drive arrangement..

 

Richard Peskett.

[Redherring]

Richard, the article mentions combination starting - charging - lighting units. Do you happen to know whether these were commonly used and by whom, way back when? Robert

[andypugh]

Richard, the article mentions combination starting - charging - lighting units. Do you happen to know whether these were commonly used and by whom, way back when? Robert

 

I know of a 1920s Morris Truck with "Dynastart" (Google brings up many links)

[8_10 Brass Cleaner]

If anyone fancies a period dynamo, I have such a thing

 

http://www.tractiontalkforum.com/showthread.php?t=27610&highlight=p%26amp%3BH+generator

 

 

[jhooah]

I need to contribute sometimes...

On my 1918 Standard B Liberty Type I (which I hope to restore finally this year) the starter was a generator, which would not necessarily produce enough power to start the engine, but could assist. The truck had full electric lights including tiny driving lights on the bframe horns, with armored steel wrapped cables to all the electrical parts, distributor AND a Magneto, set to run simultaneously, not independently like a Model-T where you could switch over.

The Type II came out and the US Army did away with ALL electrics, kept the magneto and added a carbide generator with gas lamps, spot lamp and a Kerosene tailamp.

So if the logic were that it was harder to get Carbide in the War Theater this is opposite of the simplicity and skill set? of maintenance of the operators, as doing away with the electrics meant they could do away with light bulbs, batteries, generators, points, a second set of ignition wires, etc. I suppose the principle of K.I.S.S. was evident upon creating the Type I and everyone made improvements for the Type II (prevalent version of most existing vehicles) to include a hand pressure pump to pressurize the spare fuel tank verses a big drain dump valve that you would use to fill a bucket under the truck and transfer the fuel manually spalshing fuel about. (perhaps while incoming shells were bursting)

 

I've located the steel wire conduit at several car restoration dealers in the US and UK. it's not going to be cheap, but the expensive Duessenbergs and such took silver or nickel plated conduit up into the late 30's.

V/R W. Winget

Carrollton, Virginia

USA

[Enigma]

I need to contribute sometimes...

On my 1918 Standard B Liberty Type I (which I hope to restore finally this year) the starter was a generator, which would not necessarily produce enough power to start the engine, but could assist. The truck had full electric lights including tiny driving lights on the bframe horns, with armored steel wrapped cables to all the electrical parts, distributor AND a Magneto, set to run simultaneously, not independently like a Model-T where you could switch over.

The Type II came out and the US Army did away with ALL electrics, kept the magneto and added a carbide generator with gas lamps, spot lamp and a Kerosene tailamp.

So if the logic were that it was harder to get Carbide in the War Theater this is opposite of the simplicity and skill set? of maintenance of the operators, as doing away with the electrics meant they could do away with light bulbs, batteries, generators, points, a second set of ignition wires, etc. I suppose the principle of K.I.S.S. was evident upon creating the Type I and everyone made improvements for the Type II (prevalent version of most existing vehicles) to include a hand pressure pump to pressurize the spare fuel tank verses a big drain dump valve that you would use to fill a bucket under the truck and transfer the fuel manually spalshing fuel about. (perhaps while incoming shells were bursting)

 

I've located the steel wire conduit at several car restoration dealers in the US and UK. it's not going to be cheap, but the expensive Duessenbergs and such took silver or nickel plated conduit up into the late 30's.

V/R W. Winget

Carrollton, Virginia

USA

 

 

Come on then, show us some photo's of the liberty truck!