Off to the Hurtgenwald....

[Joris]

Tomorrow morning I'm going with the Screaming Ducks to the Hurtgenwald so expect some breathtaking pictures after the weekend!

 

Cheers lads!

 

 

[Mark]

Lucky swine :-D

[Jack]

Bl**dy hell mate - you kept that quite - this is a must see sight for me, for a reason I don't know why.

 

A horrific site. Worse than the Somme.

[ArtistsRifles]

Lucky swine :-D

 

 

My sentiments exactly!!!!

[Joris]

Yeah sorry, has been on my mind for weeks now but it never occured to me to talk about it...

 

We'll pay special tribute to Pfc Robert Cahow, 78th inf div, whose fieldgrave was discovered in 2000. One of the members of the Screaming Ducks is in contact with his relatives and when we are at the location where he was found we will be on the phone with them. That will really be moving.....

[Joris]

Back at work again today, had a fantastic weekend! Almost ran into a jeep because the brakes malfunctioned and was almost thrown out of a Dodge when we drove over a speedhump. Add to that the beauty and sinister history of the Hurtgenwald I truly had a fantastic weekend.

 

Pictures with description can be found here:

http://nieuwint.net/ww2/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=998&g2_page=1&g2_fromNavId=x3c27eff5

[Jack]

awesome pictures Joris - could you post some of your favorite ones here?

 

And what is the significance of Bernard Young of the 78th inf. div. who died in the Hurtgenwald?

[Joris]

We wanted to lay flowers at a grave of a trooper who died in the Hurtgenwald, he was the first we found.

[Rick W]

I must confess my ignorance as far as Hurtgenwald goes. Whats the history of it?

[Jack]

I must confess my ignorance as far as Hurtgenwald goes. Whats the history of it?

 

 

Rick - it was an epic battle between the US and the Germans - in fact I think it is the worst battle the USA has ever been in. Not a lot of people have heard of it for a couple of reasons.

 

1. It was a major screw up by the USA high command - some big egos involved.

2. It wasn't an 101st Airborne battle - but I do believe elements of the 82nd were sent there.

 

This from wikepedia:

The American high command was flush with success after the breakout from the Normandy bridgehead and hoped they could quickly break through and push further into Germany. Multiple divisions were sent in to the Hürtgen Forest, only to be decimated and replaced by still more divisions. Even with armor, air, and artillery support, all advantages held by the Americans were negated by the inhospitable forest terrain. Despite smaller numbers, the Germans were able to impede the larger American force thanks to the difficult terrain and having good defensive positions—plus they had ample experience in winter and mountain warfare that the Americans mostly lacked.

 

It was the perfect military scenario for the overstretched German army. If overtaken, the Germans could have easily flooded the entire Rur river system downstream from the dam, delaying the Americans' advance. The Germans were heavily entrenched in the forest and also made use of the Siegfried Line defenses in the area, inflicting heavy casualties in the longest single battle the U.S. Army has ever fought in its history[2]: The Americans suffered well over 24,000 direct casualties during the battle, plus another 9,000 casualties due to fatigue, illness, and friendly fire; casualties among the Germans also reached 12,000. Despite this, the Battle of Hürtgen Forest is largely forgotten because the Battle of the Bulge, which began shortly afterwards, stole the spotlight. The victory was hard-fought, the engagement was long, and the casualties tremendous, making it a difficult event to glorify from either side.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hurtgen_Forest

 

Read a very sad book on it last year.

 

I have to get there one day.

[Snapper]

Robin Niellands' Battle For The Rhine 1944 gives a superb account of the American command failures and the immense bravery and fortitude of the troops involved. I suppose in some ways it may be deemed comparable in terms of suffering to The Somme, but numbers alone make this unlikely. in real terms the attrition rate of British infantry battalions in Normandy was much worse than practically all American situations as our army was bled white to achieve the breakout and there were no replacements in any number to fill the gap. These losses were catastrophic for the British Army. This point is argued in the classic Six Armies In Normandy which everyone should read. In point of fact, nothing in the west can be "worse than the Somme" or Third Ypres in overall losses; quite apart from Verdun, Chemin Des Dammes or even the huge loss of life the French endured in Artois at Vimy and Notre Dame de Lorette in 1915.

[Joris]

My favorite pictures:

 

Passing Margraten cemetery:

http://nieuwint.net/ww2/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1014&g2_serialNumber=2[/img]

 

Our vehicles for the weekend:

http://nieuwint.net/ww2/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1244&g2_serialNumber=6[/img]

 

German trenches in the Hurtgenwald:

http://nieuwint.net/ww2/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1040&g2_serialNumber=2[/img]

 

Beautifull landscape:

http://nieuwint.net/ww2/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1130&g2_serialNumber=2[/img]

 

Dragonsteeth:

http://nieuwint.net/ww2/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1150&g2_serialNumber=2[/img]

 

Ambulance at the Dragons Teeth:

http://nieuwint.net/ww2/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1164&g2_serialNumber=2[/img]

 

Henri Chapelle cemetery:

http://nieuwint.net/ww2/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1202&g2_serialNumber=2[/img]

 

http://nieuwint.net/ww2/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1206&g2_serialNumber=2[/img]

 

Laying flowers at the grave of a trooper who died in the Hürtgenwald:

http://nieuwint.net/ww2/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1210&g2_serialNumber=2[/img]

 

 

[Rick W]

Good pics. What was the book you read Jack?

[Jack]

Good pics. What was the book you read Jack?

 

 

Have a look below Rick.

 

It is one of the best books I have read of WW2. Not many know about it as it was pretty much covered up for many years and you will soon see what it earn't its name of the Death Factory as what went in, didn't usually come out alive. A lot of troops were never buried, as there wasn't anything left to be buried.

 

This is the place where regiments weren'y just decimated - they were 100% destroyed.

 

I intend to get there next year.

 

 

 

 

--

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Hurtgen-Forest-Charles-Whiting/dp/0517566753

Editorial Reviews

From Publishers Weekly

From September 1944 to February '45, in the longest battle ever fought by the U.S. Army, division after division were sent into the Hurtgen Forest on the Belgian-German border. By the time the smoke cleared, nearly 30,000 GIs had been killed or wounded. Whiting makes it painfully clear that the battle of Hurtgen was unnecessary and had more to do with the maintenance of high-level reputations than strategic imperatives. He argues that Hurtgen was the forerunner of an attitude that became pervasive in Vietnam, where "generals were still throwing away the lives of their young soliders with the same careless abandon." Whiting ( Bloody Aachen ) describes the battle with a sure hand; there is plenty of heroism on these pages, but little glory. As he points out, the only soldier of Hurtgen remembered today is "the one who ran away": Pvt. Eddie Slovik, the first American soldier executed for desertion since the Civil War. Photos.

Copyright 1989 Reed Business Information, Inc.

 

From Library Journal

Thirty thousand American troops, many of them green recruits, were killed or wounded during the bitter six-month battle for the Hurtgen Forest in 1944-45. Ten American divisions were decimated in the 50-square mile dank, freezing forest, which was thickly sown with German defenses and troops. Yet the battle was unnecessary; the forest had no strategic or military value. American generals, most of whom had never bothered to view the battlefield, had made a terrible error. But in order to save their reputations and careers, they sent thousands of young men to their deaths. Whiting, a first-rate military historian and writer, has finally exposed this 40-year coverup. Essential for World War II collections.

[Snapper]

Interesting.

 

Whiting has been discussed on the forum before. Views of him appear mixed. However, this is a very important chapter from the command point of view, because taken in conjunction with command decisions made up to and during The Bulge it shows that some of the senior Americans were really as much use as a chocolate fireguard, and, as I have droned on before; they won the histriography battle, too. Britain made the numbers up. How many British soldiers were killed/wounded during the Normandy campaign and then later after the Rhine crossing. Try reading a copy of No Triumphal March - I've forgotten the author. I read a Southend library copy, have yet to find my own. More heartbreak for our country, inspite of victory.

 

The Americans killed in the Hurtgen Forest were betrayed by the vanity of their commanders. Nothing new in that under any flag. But they lived a lie and have rarely been brought to book, passing the buck on to Monty and the Brits or indulging in a bit of quiet fratricide.

 

As for Eddie Slovik, if you get a rare chance to see The Victors, you will see his execution played out with Frank Sinatra singing Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas. A stunning bit of cinema.