trophy160 Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 According to Bill Munro's book the Mk6 Saracen has a laden weight of 24,724 lbs which according to Google =11.0375 tons. Would the bridge plate for that vehicle be 11 or does the army round up giving 12? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 IN my big book of army words is the following FV603 FV604 bridge plate number 11 FV610 FV 611 BRIDGE PLATE NUMBER 12 HOPES THIS HELPS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trophy160 Posted September 6, 2013 Author Share Posted September 6, 2013 I've probably got this wrong, but all marks of Saracen APC would be FV603 and the Mk6 weights a ton more than a Mk2 for example so would the 11 tons refer to a Mk2 or a Mk6? One would conclude that there must be two different bridge plates either 10 & 11 or 11 & 12 or have I got this wrong ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally dugan Posted September 6, 2013 Share Posted September 6, 2013 Bridges in the british are classed as the following 5 9 i2 18 24 30 40 50 60 70 tons so if you wanted to cross a bridge you would have to find one of at least i2 tons as the maximum weight the bridge would carry having looked at old photographs of AF BUDGES when he had loads of saracens they carried either the number 11 or 12 bridge plate l think this is one of the times its up to you because there is no 10 or 11 ton bridge so your only one you can use is 12 and above l hope this makes sense to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trophy160 Posted September 6, 2013 Author Share Posted September 6, 2013 Thanks for the explanation Wally Nic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienFTM Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 In my experience the bridge classification number could be several tons greater than the weight of the vehicle. If you saw, for example the extra kit piled into a Saracen ACV to be unloaded in the right order at the other end to fill the penthouse and turn it into a functioning command post, plus the weight of the crew (call it 1 cwt each) and their equipment, it mounts up. I remember being tasked one cold dark wet night to lead Zero Alpha (the senior ACV) across Soltau Training area in my Ferret. It would have taken a lot less time if someone had given me a map with the bridge classifications on. My Ferret could go anywhere, but the grown-ups in the ACV were getting fed up of turning round every time I found a culvert with a bridge classification too low for the ACV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 In my experience the bridge classification number could be several tons greater than the weight of the vehicle. Yes I agree, it was also because of Bridge Load Classification (STANAG 2010 & 2021) Introduced 1960-68. The bridge load classification was said to originally have represented by the rounded up weight of the vehicle in tons. "The new system relates to the characteristics of the vehicle which includes overall weight, number of axles, distance between axles, axle load (unladen & laden), tyre size, ground clearance etc and bears no direct relationship to the former system." It must be remembered that is a STANAG, which is a NATO Standard applicable to many countries. The UK had already taken some account of factors other than weight - 1st September 1959 SDM(L) 219/1, Computation of Bridge, Raft, and Vehicle Classification. This went through a series of changes & reissued at intervals until SDM(L) 219/3 was cancelled & replaced by Defence Standard 23-2. What changed in the U.K. was that the mechanism for calculating a figure was now standardised with other NATO countries. The classification of bridges was also changed to take account of the effects that particular vehicles would have on the bridge. However the application of the system is the same as before, in that only a vehicle load class less or equal to the bridge load class number may cross the bridge. The load class number is based on vehicles travelling at normal convoy speeds at a spacing of 100 feet. The classification also relates to ferries, and takes into account an assessment of the state of the approaches to the crossing to produce an overall classification. There was no point in exclusively UK based vehicles having a Bridge Class displayed, as the Joint Service Road Transport Regulations JSP 341 states that: The UK will not prepare classification signs for civilian bridges and ferries in UK territory in peacetime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfire Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 From AC61335 Saracen MKs 1-6 User Handbook 1976: Approximate Weights [TABLE=class: grid, width: 500] [TR] [TD]Variant [/TD] [TD]Status [/TD] [TD]Tonnes [/TD] [TD]Pounds [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]APC Mk 1, 2 and 3 ACV Mk 1 and 2 [/TD] [TD]Laden [/TD] [TD]10.2 tonnes [/TD] [TD]24,490 lb [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]APC Mk 1, 2 and 3 ACV Mk 1 and 2 [/TD] [TD]Unladen [/TD] [TD]8.7 tonnes [/TD] [TD]19,180 lb [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]APC Mk 5 and 6 ACV Mk 5 AMB [/TD] [TD]Laden [/TD] [TD]11.2 tonnes [/TD] [TD]24,700 lb [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]APC Mk 5 and 6 ACV Mk 5 AMB [/TD] [TD]Unladen [/TD] [TD]10.2 tonnes [/TD] [TD]22,490 lb [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]ACP [/TD] [TD]Laden [/TD] [TD]11.2 tonnes [/TD] [TD]24,700 lb [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]ACP [/TD] [TD]Unladen [/TD] [TD]9.6 tonnes [/TD] [TD]21,160 lb [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Bridge Classification [TABLE=class: grid, width: 500] [TR] [TD]Variant [/TD] [TD]Classification [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Mk 1, 2 and 3 [/TD] [TD]11 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Mk 5 and 6, ACP, AMB [/TD] [TD]12 [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Shipping Tonnage [TABLE=class: grid, width: 500] [TR] [TD]Variant [/TD] [TD]Tonnage [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]APC, ACV, AMB [/TD] [TD]26 ton 35 cu ft [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]ACP [/TD] [TD]29 ton 37 cu ft [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Cheers, Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datadawg Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 My Saracen is missing its bridge plate or any markings. I have an MK6, so it would need a 12 ton plate. Does anyone have recommendations of where to source? Assuming nothing is available at reasonable price, what have people done as workaround? I've read on another forum post someone using a lid from a paint tin and then painting it, which I thought was a clever idea. Also considered getting a vinyl sticker, anyone has experience with them, do they fade or fall off? Would a sticker affixed to magnetic type backing work better? If anyone can post a photo of their bridge plate, it would help to see what I'm actually after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 http://marcusglenn.com/index.php?route=product/search&filter_name=bridge&filter_sub_category=true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfire Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 To the best of my knowledge, the Saracen never had a physical bridge plate; it was always painted on or a sticker. Depending on what you want your Saracen to represent, however, it may not be appropriate to put one on it. As stated by Clive, bridge plates weren't affixed to vehicles serving in the UK, so if you're going for NI spec, it wouldn't have carried one. Also, they went from being black on yellow to black on grey at some stage, so you need to pick an era. There wasn't exactly a fixed place for the marking; Clive's documents on vehicle painting give some general information, but most Saracens had it on the right fender, inboard of the headlight, or on the bottom right of the lower front, under the grille. If you do a Google image search for "Alvis Saracen" you'll see plenty of examples. Cheers, Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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