Hitler's / Goering's Horton Bros. 229 Stealth

[ruxy]

45 min. of your life

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaJzKjtjZnY

 

Many ifs , too many ifs , something that I doubt Watson-Watt anticipated that his Chain Home would meet head on. Also the comments apparently by Goering about his advanced weaponry ??

[Enigma]

45 min. of your life

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaJzKjtjZnY

 

Many ifs , too many ifs , something that I doubt Watson-Watt anticipated that his Chain Home would meet head on. Also the comments apparently by Goering about his advanced weaponry ??

 

I made several plastic scale models of it. One of the best looking German jet planes.

[Tony B]

First , the German Arado 234 Blitz jet bomber made two ariel recon flights of the Normandy beaches, the only two the German's ever managed. That was not detected by radar or visual means. Second , wood was probably the only material readily available, it dosen't need sophistacted machinery to work it. Third the jet engines at the time had very low emdurance, the reduced drag of the flying wing configuration increases endurance. There was also the theory that a flying wing was easier to fly,so hopefully a reduction in training time, a vital consideration to the 3rd Reich at that period. So intresting design, but nothing to do with modern tactical ideas. As an aside the German's had some very sophisticted aeronautical gear, including a three metere wind tunnel that was disgused as a barn. The roof elevated whem the tunnel was in use. A lot of kit was taken by the allies, Concorde was designed using a German WW2 wind tunnel. There was a Luftwaffer marked overhead crane at one establishment I know. May well still be there.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Tony B

[Enigma]

First , the German Arado 234 Blitz jet bomber made two ariel recon flights of the Normandy beaches, the only two the German's ever managed. That was not detected by radar or visual means. Second , wood was probably the only material readily available, it dosen't need sophistacted machinery to work it. Third the jet engines at the time had very low emdurance, the reduced drag of the flying wing configuration increases endurance. There was also the theory that a flying wing was easier to fly,so hopefully a reduction in training time, a vital consideration to the 3rd Reich at that period. So intresting design, but nothing to do with modern tactical ideas. As an aside the German's had some very sophisticted aeronautical gear, including a three metere wind tunnel that was disgused as a barn. The roof elevated whem the tunnel was in use. A lot of kit was taken by the allies, Concorde was designed using a German WW2 wind tunnel. There was a Luftwaffer marked overhead crane at one establishment I know. May well still be there.

 

Indeed, I also don't think the HO 229 was designed as a stelth plane, it had characteristics because of material and shape.Still a goodlooking plane.

[Pzkpfw-e]

It wasn't a Horton 229, it was a Gotha 229.

Horton made the Ho IX prototype, with Gotha being the designated manufacturer.

The only survivor, the V3, is currently being restored - to static display! - at NASM.

http://airandspace.si.edu/collections/artifact.cfm?id=A19600324000

 

 

 

[Enigma]

The swastikas aren't Original to the plane, they weren't on it when found by the Americans.

There were also some different types in a early built stages.

 

This plane was a prototype so a Horten, Gotha never made any.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Enigma

[RattlesnakeBob]

An incredible aircraft...... Together with other projects the Nazi's were working on and were also way ahead of us with such as jets / super U Boats/ small arms etc , you have to realise we were exceptionally lucky the Allies prevailed....... It's just as well Hitler insisted on meddling & ultimately generally messing up a lot of their plans & weapons otherwise things could very easily have gone very differently ;(

[Caddy]

An incredible aircraft...... Together with other projects the Nazi's were working on and were also way ahead of us with such as jets / super U Boats/ small arms etc , you have to realise we were exceptionally lucky the Allies prevailed....... It's just as well Hitler insisted on meddling & ultimately generally messing up a lot of their plans & weapons otherwise things could very easily have gone very differently ;(

 

Isn't there a school of thought that we were exceptionally lucky that the Germans kept on trying to develop these very complicated, time and material consuming projects. With the V2; if they had put all those resources into standard bombers then the amount of damage they could achieve would have so much more.......

[Pzkpfw-e]

By the time the V2s were falling, they'd have been far better of forgetting about bombers completely.

[Jack]

Here's the question - if the Allieds had as much slave labour as the Third Reich had at their means - would we have been as advanced? Or even more so...

[Tony B]

Here's the question - if the Allieds had as much slave labour as the Third Reich had at their means - would we have been as advanced? Or even more so...

 

Careful Jack. Slave and forced labour are touchy subjects. Far from making the Reich powerful there are many tales, some proven some apocraful about dust and grit being mixed with grease used to lubricate machinery at factories, , acid being painted onto U Boat hulls, uniforms being stiched with deliberate poor seams. A lot of these acts if discovered would have led to punishment and death.

[ruxy]

43 min. some clever thingies

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dmyKaIya4c

[Jack]

Careful Jack. Slave and forced labour are touchy subjects. Far from making the Reich powerful there are many tales, some proven some apocraful about dust and grit being mixed with grease used to lubricate machinery at factories, , acid being painted onto U Boat hulls, uniforms being stiched with deliberate poor seams. A lot of these acts if discovered would have led to punishment and death.

 

But it is still a very interesting question :-D

[Tony B]

Agreed but, Electronic computers, the Jet engine, Radar, the Cavity Magnatron all Britsh inventions. The diffrence was we won, so could keep our secrets. A lot such as Enigma were kept secrt for both political reasons, there was a desire post WW2 that the the cult of Germany not be defeated by military means but political cowardice that prevailed following the 'I fooled the Hun' tub thumping by various Brtitsh personalitys after the Great War, and used extensivley by Hitler would not be repeated. There was an immdiate concern over Stalin's intentions, and such assets were deployed aginst the USSR. Then there was the reparations to the US, which means a lot of British invntions are claimed by US firms. None of this required slave labour or coercion. It was also nessacary that Germany be allowed dignity, as the country was now the Front Line in the Cold War.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Tony B

[ruxy]

RADAR - or should I say what later became known as RADAR , location & direction finding by radio means , radio navigation , RDF (that at first apparently had no meaning). Who had it first , Michael Bragg in RDF1 - skates around it , stating more or less the subject was a non-topic at Bawdsley Manor. R.V. Jones in Most Secret War was quite specific , quoting the Oslo Report. Stating the fact that the Admiralty report on the survey of the wreck of the Graf Spee (Dec. 1939 - sunk) should have been quite conclusive - she had radar type aerials (meaning German research and construction was probably years prior).

However - it does seem that arguably John Logie Baird was involved at a very early stage , and probably was secretly involved during WW2

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/authors-claim-john-logie-baird-invented-radar-1.589481

 

 

IMHO , what we now know as RADAR was so far above top secret for all countries - we will never know. The stage work done by Germany (and other countries inc. U.K.) was / is suppressed still. PreWW2 , free published university research , commercial / industrial espionage . Multi-National Companies for product manufacture & badge-engineering - it was all there. Military financed research (secret) - was not always at the cutting-edge.

[g0ozs]

In terms of pre-ww2 Radar developments around the world the IEE conference publication "Radar Development to 1945" 2nd Edition 1989 ISBN-13: 978-0863411397 is highly recommended. This had papers by surviving pioneers and modern historians about pre 1945 developments in the major countries prior to WW2 - the work documented in my 1st edition pushes the beginnings of VHF radar in the UK and Germany back to 1934/35 although with rather different motivations - as a naval gunnery rangefinder in Germany and as air raid warning in the UK. US air warning development seems to have started a year or so later. The unique British contribution was the Cavity Magnetron developed at the University of Birmingham that allowed use of high power at progressively higher microwave frequencies to escape jamming and improve accuracy as the war progressed.

 

Having said that (and returning slightly to topic) the early long wavelength Chain Home at 30 MHz/10 Metres was much better at detecting some "wood and wire" aircraft that would have had almost no reflecting area as seen by a 10cm or 3cm microwave radar but did have wires of comparable length to the radar wavelength that would re-radiate the signal - probably the Ho. 229 would have been in the same category if engines and control wires were the only large (or more importantly, long) pieces of metal. VHF radar remains one of the best counters to 1st generation stealth technology to this day

 

Regards

 

Iain

[Tony B]

The main advantage Britian gained with Radar was the employment. Britiain use dRadar to gain an overall picture then commit units as available. Germany used a box system with one aircraft being controlled by one Radar. Prior to WW2 there was a lot of contact bettween the RAF and the Luftwaffe. Winterbotham's book 'The Nazi Connection' is well worth a read on that subject.