wdbikemad Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Interesting pair (at the top) of Size 8 1952 pattern OD sateen combat trousers......unlined and with the button-flap over the fly......interestingly, these trousers have a very light brown over-painted cammo pattern....! Label at the bottom is from a similar pair of trousers, almost identical but of 1953 pattern and now not featuring the button flap over the fly...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter4456 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 I acquired these today at Military Odyssey for what I thought was a bargain £5. They're not the 1960 pattern I thought they were (should have read label properly - doh!) but what is the difference between 1952 and 1960 pattern trousers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) The main difference between the sateen 52 pattern trousers and the later 60 pattern trousers is the former were unlined. This was because the trousers were intended for wear over thick woolen (almost like serge) trouser liners, or serge BD trousers, etc, in extreme cold weather.......the matching 52 pattern smock was lined all the way down to the lower hem to provide insulation over the loins, a feature deleted on the 60 pattern smock when the trousers of the later were lined ! There are actually 3 distinct patterns of Korean War era combat trousers. The original version introduced during 1951 were made in windproof gabardine and were lined in similar fabric, but were discontinued pretty early on, by mid-52 at the latest, as the gabardine was found to be insufficiently durable for extensive field usage. These trousers do not carry any pattern designation on the label. By (probably) late 1952 the "52" pattern appeared, now made in heavier sateen cloth and identical to the original version in gabardine but no longer featuring any lining..... By (probably) 1953 - 54 a third version appeared that were identical to the 52 pattern but lacking the button-over flap covering the zip-fly. These were also unlined, the label featuring the designation "1953 pattern"..... The combat trousers in all patterns remained on issue until the lined 60 pattern appeared during 1961, although issue continued whilst stocks remained available. All pre-60 pattern trousers are cut slightly wider in the leg compared to the 60 pattern, to allow for the trouser liner to be worn beneath, and are slightly shorter in the legs in all sizes compared to the subsequent issue.... Additionally, no pre-60 pattern trousers feature the universal instruction label found on 60 pattern trousers (although the earlier smocks do)...... I am still looking for a 1st issue combat smock in gabardine, arguably as rare as the 1st issue trousers.....! I have examples of all the other patterns...... Edited August 27, 2012 by wdbikemad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter4456 Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Wow, thanks for your help - just what I was looking for! So in fact the 1952 pattern (with botton over fly) and 1960 pattern trousers look reasonably similar - they certainly match the colour of my 1960 pattern jacket pretty well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) Wow, thanks for your help - just what I was looking for! So in fact the 1952 pattern (with botton over fly) and 1960 pattern trousers look reasonably similar - they certainly match the colour of my 1960 pattern jacket pretty well! Your welcome Peter. The button-over fly-flap was deleted by the time the 53 pattern and subsequent 60 pattern came out, probably as an unnecessary addition......you may have noticed that on the 52 (and earlier) pattern the zip fastener is actually sewn into the trousers at an angle..... As for colour, many variations exist in the green combat dress.....and prior to 1961 many (new) sateen garments will have a slightly "shinier" finish than subsequent versions....this was because the War Office decided to manufacture garments after 1960 with the reverse of the sateen fabric on the external side, because it was felt that the reverse side had better wearing qualities (according to official reports in my records...) Arguably, the pre-60 pattern combat trousers are far harder to source than the 60 pattern.....so in my humble opinion a fiver very well invested..... Edited August 27, 2012 by wdbikemad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enfield1940 Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Alas I had to miss Detling this year - the first time in about ten years.:-( Whilst we're on the subject of 52/53 Pattern gear, what is the difference between the 52 and 53 Pattern smocks? Cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) Alas I had to miss Detling this year - the first time in about ten years.:-( Whilst we're on the subject of 52/53 Pattern gear, what is the difference between the 52 and 53 Pattern smocks? Cheers, Mark Mark, there isn't a 53 pattern smock, only trousers..... Original 1st issue smock (1951) in gabardine (fully lined)..... 2nd issue smock (1952) in sateen (fully lined in gabardine).......this smock is often referred to as the "52 pattern" but officially, it was known as the "Smock, Combat, Sateen", the earlier 1st issue simply being known as "Smock, Combat".....I know of no sateen smocks bearing the designation (on the label) "1952 pattern" although some trousers (and middle parkas) do feature this....... The sateen smock remained in service, unaltered, until the 60 pattern appeared during 1961.........however, trials of the latter commenced as early as 1958 when the entire sateen combat suit was subject to extensive testing and trials during the late 1950's......this included modifications to the length of garments, fasteners, fabric and the design and cut of the sleeve of the smock (the latter not actually entering production until 1962 at the earliest).......the military also carried out tests of a combat suit manufactured in both olive AND navy blue made from heavy rubberised "Gannex" fabric......needless to say, it was a hot, sweaty failure...! The War Office had over 100 modified "trial" suits manufactured by 1959 that were used as a basis for the 60 pattern, officially described as a development of the original Korean War era garments.......I have many of the trial reports in my archive that I hope to incorporate in the book........:-D Edited August 28, 2012 by wdbikemad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enfield1940 Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 Thanks. The one I recently acquired had an obscured label, so I was wondering if it was a 52 or a 53. So it appears to be either both or neither according to preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHillyard Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 Picked up a pair of 53patt trousers in Colchester today for £5 among some other bits. Very good condition! 1954 dated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 Nice condition (and size !) Martyn........as you can see, the modified fly but otherwise very much as the earlier pattern in other respects..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHillyard Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 Amazingly found a pair at the carboot today for £2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter4456 Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 You jammy, jammy, person (again!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHillyard Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 All the 52, 53 and 60 pattern trousers i have all seem to be very wide in the leg area, i realise that the 50s ones where supposed to accomodate the liner but where they always so wide? or were they made to fit well as you would expect? Looking at this source they look pretty large aswel http://www.onesixth.co.uk/vb4forum/showthread.php?1566-Combat-Dress-1950-and-1960-Patterns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted September 16, 2012 Author Share Posted September 16, 2012 You are quite correct Martyn....all 50s production of the original gabardine, 52 and 53 pattern sateen trousers were made wide in the leg to accomodate the thick liners.........the 60 pattern lined sateen trousers saw the trouser liner obsolete and the trousers leg was reduced in width (but increased in length !) accordingly, roughly by about 1 - 1.5 inches..... That is one damn fine pair of MINT trousers.......very scarce......:-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eaglehurst Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) A very nice example of the first pattern trousers mentioned above sold yesterday on eBay - Hogspear again! Whilst i would have liked to have added this missing first issue to my examples of the 2nd and 3rd issues I just couldn't justify the £80+ they eventually sold for!:shocked: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1952-Dated-Double-Thickness-Olive-Green-Windproof-Type-Combat-Trousers-FZV-/140860530297?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item20cbf11e79&nma=true&si=3DG1A%2Bz75O7I%2FAfBcqAFveLwPEs%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 Edited October 16, 2012 by Eaglehurst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotch Harry Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 A very nice example of the first pattern trousers mentioned above sold yesterday on eBay - Hogspear again! Whilst i would have liked to have added this missing first issue to my examples of the 2nd and 3rd issues I just couldn't justify the £80+ they eventually sold for!:shocked: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1952-Dated-Double-Thickness-Olive-Green-Windproof-Type-Combat-Trousers-FZV-/140860530297?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item20cbf11e79&nma=true&si=3DG1A%2Bz75O7I%2FAfBcqAFveLwPEs%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 I Hattttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttte Hogspear,why I cant I have the constant supplies of amazing items he always has:embarrassed::embarrassed::embarrassed::-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter4456 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I Hattttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttte Hogspear,why I cant I have the constant supplies of amazing items he always has:embarrassed::embarrassed::embarrassed::-D Yes indeed - he must know a lot of retired Army officers! He's got another very nice 1960 Pattern Combat Jacket at the moment with Major's crowns and Army Air Corps wings on it - he had another fairly recently (I think it was a better size though) which went for 'silly' money! As I've now acquired a good pair of 1960 Pattern trousers, if anyone wants the 1952 pattern ones I bought at Detling, let me know - price is the £5 I paid for them plus post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotch Harry Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Yes indeed - he must know a lot of retired Army officers! He's got another very nice 1960 Pattern Combat Jacket at the moment with Major's crowns and Army Air Corps wings on it - he had another fairly recently (I think it was a better size though) which went for 'silly' money! As I've now acquired a good pair of 1960 Pattern trousers, if anyone wants the 1952 pattern ones I bought at Detling, let me know - price is the £5 I paid for them plus post. PM Sent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter4456 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Now sold - thanks guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdbikemad Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) I was also watching the 52 dated 1st pattern combat trousers, made in gabardine and lined......but wasn't prepared to go up to more than £50........... What is interesting however, is that they featured the LATER 53 pattern non-buttoned flap fly arrangement.......???!! Thus, I have revised my summary.......... 1st pattern (1951-52) - gabardine, lined, with both flapped and non-flapped fly ("Trousers Combat") 2nd pattern (1952-54) - sateen, unlined, with both flapped and non-flapped fly ("Trousers Combat Sateen" - often - though not always, designated on the label "1952 pattern" - it is thought that the 52 pattern refers to the trousers - and suit - manufactured in sateen, rather than the actual style) 3rd pattern (1954-61) - sateen, unlined, with non-flapped fly ONLY ("Trousers Combat Sateen 1953 Pattern). It is thought that the 53 designation now refers to the sateen trousers manufactured to the standardised non-flapped-fly pattern...... So, three distinct patterns before the 60 pattern....and with variations amongst the first two.....!!? I have a 52 dated gabardine hood, but no smock in gabardine to match.......anyone got one they can post images of ??? Edited October 17, 2012 by wdbikemad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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