WW1. Daimler lorry production.

[Richard Peskett]

'It will all be over by Christmas', well, we all know it wasn't. Amongst a large collection of glass plate negatives of Daimler commercial vehicles pre 1915 I bought recently is this view of stand no. 236 at the R.A.S.E. Show , Wollaton Park ,Nottingham in the siummer of 1915. The stand would seem to have two of the then new 'Y' type 3 ton lorries and two of the heavy tractors on display. Already very much into serious war production, how did they find time to exhibit at such an event and include four vehicles which I am sure by then were desperately needed at the front ?.

Richard Peskett.

 

[Great War truck]

Marvellous photograph. As you say they must have been anticipating an early end to the war as the Ministry of Munitions would surely not let any of these vehicles be sold in to non essential war work ownership.

[Runflat]

It's quite clear from comtemporary accounts that requistioning heavy vehicles for military use affected the home industry's ability to supply the war effort. So some vehicle production had to be released to the market, rather than the forces. I'll dig out some extracts and post them later.

[Roy Larkin]

It's only a theory but I'm not sure that they were being shown to sell to the civilian market. I think that by the end of 1914 it was already being recognised that we were in for the long haul and by summer of 1915 there was virtual stalemate. Conscription hadn't yet been introduced and the initial wave of patriotism had begun to diminish and finding volunteers was becoming harder, so I'm wondering if the stand was as much about recruitment as vehicle sales, particularly as the Dennis shown has war-time markings and bodywork. R.A.S.E. Shows would have been a good opportunity to get the message to the farming community. Summer would have been a busy time for farm labourers and I suspect many would have opted for work on the farm rather than the Front and waited until after the harvest when farm work declined before choosing what would have been a reliable job to see them through the winter.

I'm not sure, but wasn't the Foster-Daimler shown conceived as a military vehicle? I seem to recollect that the MTC had a big part in its design. Whilst Daimler histories claim the Foster-Daimler as their own, as do Foster claim it as their own, I seem to recall from an MTC Annual Report that it was the War Office who chose Foster to design the tractor with the instruction that the Daimler engine was to be used, effectively forcing the 2 companies to cooperate.

It is often forgotten that the vast majority of the British public didn't 'go to war' and it must have been apparent that the war would end at some point and even though entrenched, 1918 was still a long way off. I'd guess that even though their time was fully occupied with war production that the more astute companies would also have had at least half an eye on the future and their prospects when the war production ended.

Yes, transport was desperately needed, but a few lorries used for shows would have paid dividends for both the War Office and the manufacturers in showing the public what fine products were being sent to France for 'our boys' to use.

All supposition, but I suspect there's more of a message here than just selling lorries.

[Runflat]

OK, here are the extracts I was thinking of, which give an overview as to the situation (all from Motor Traction)-

 

 

Review of the year (30th December 1914):

 

...motor transport development, and the industry dependent upon it – in common with others – underwent a tremendous upheaval at the beginning of August, 1914, when the great war broke out. For a few days, it must be admitted, there were signs of a lack of coolness in many quarters. Plenty of people were running about urging upon other people that they should “continue their business as usual” who would have been better occupied in continuing their own. Anxiety was, of course, inevitable, and, on the whole, the country certainly passed through the first phase of the crisis with credit.

As soon as it became possible to gauge immediate results, it was evident that manufacturers of industrial motors were in for a very busy time, and that many users of these machines were involved in difficulties, the duration of which could not be anticipated. Huge numbers of machines were requisitioned. In some cases they could be, and were, replaced by others unsuitable for military use, either on account of their age and inferior condition, or else on account of their light load capacity. In those instances in which really sound three-tonners were the only suitable type, considerable hardship was, and continues to be, felt. The bulk of our manufacturers are still tied down to deliver fixed consignments of vehicles at regular intervals for the War Department. The numbers allocated to each were arrived at as a result of careful inspection of works and books, and generally represent very closely the total output of the factory.

How long this state of affairs will continue we cannot say...

 

 

Letter (31st March 1915):

 

Sir - You are, of course, aware of the condition of things in the heavy vehicle trade. We understand within the last few days the Government have given order to the various manufacturers to the effect that they must stop all deliveries and concentrate their energies on vehicles required by the War Department...

 

 

Editorial “Releasing British Commercial Vehicles” (8th September 1915):

 

We are glad to be in a position to state that the War Office has intimated to the principal manufacturers of commercial vehicles in this country that it is prepared to release a limited proportion of the output of such factories to permit of deliveries to purchasers. The conditions attaching to this permission appear to be that the purchaser must provide evidence that such vehicles are required in connection with War Office contracts for the supply of munitions, food stuffs, and other necessities...

It was becoming increasingly obvious that large and, indeed, small contractors to the Government were finding it difficult, and in some cases, we are informed, impossible, to deliver the goods under contract on the dates specified. The cause was the limited transport facilities now afforded by the railway companies, and the inability of contractors themselves to procure suitable motor vehicles for the conveyance either of raw materials or of finished goods. As a matter of fact, quite a number of North Country firms have for many months been delivering a large portion of their army goods by road motor to London and other military centres, but these, it may be said, were the fortunate few who had acquired such vehicles as were available and suitable for the purpose. That such a state of affairs could not go on in the national interest was apparent, so that the present arrangement seems likely to result in more satisfactory deliveries of War Department goods than has been the case up to the present. This feature of the case may indeed have had more to do with the step taken than any other aspect of the situation.

Rumours of an impending change have been in circulation for some time, and it was hoped that the release of British-built vehicles would have been on a larger scale, that other firms than those directly engaged in Government contracts or sub-contracts would have been able to participate in the available supply of new machines. Those, therefore, who do not come under the official heading will, we are afraid, be disappointed...

 

 

The existance of "rumours" suggests to me that that the key players had been involved in behind-the-scenes lobbying and other activity to help free-up supply to the domestic market - after all the 'American invasion' of motor lorries had started, taking trade from British manufacturers; and there were fears that Government contracts could cease at the stroke of a pen leaving the British industry high-and-dry. Remember politics and commerce don't stop just because there's a war on!

 

I assume, therefore, that whilst Daimler were committed to Government contracts at the time of the RASE exhibition, they put lorries on their stand, as much as anything else, in anticipation of a resumption of some semblance of normal trade - keeping their product in front of potential customers.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Runflat

[Tony B]

Gentelmen, you are overlooking the fact that the display is taking place at the Royal Agricultural Socirty of England show. England has was and still is, a net importer of food. Particullaly grain for bread making from Canada, and wood. There was a need to boost home production. For grain that meant using pasture and marginal land. For wood, well plant and wait say sixty years. The only timber about was old forest, in very difficult to reach places.

 

Pit props were a startigic item, for the mines and the trenches.

 

The only way this could be achived, especially with reduced manpower, is machinery. Again imports of agricultural vehicles were coming from the U.S. British manufactures needed to show their equipment was a good, in price and reliabilty and performance.

[Runflat]

Richard / Roy

 

I've been having another look at the exhibition photograph - in particular the background. I don't think two three-tonners are being exhibited. The one at the back looks to be a short wheel base lorry with disk wheels - almost certainly a 30cwt type. And it would make sense for Daimler to be exhibiting as many different types as possible, rather than two Y types.

 

But perhaps of more interest is the vehicle on the right. This looks to be Daimler's 40 h.p. agricultural tractor (I attach a picture of one below). A note I have of this type says that it was demonstrated at Lincoln circa August 1914. I've not made the link before, but perhaps here is another connection between Daimler and Fosters? And without War Department interference? Certainly worthy of further investigation...

 

 

[Tony B]

A similar tractor to the one on theleft is shown the film clip being scrapped in WW2. om the sad film thread.

[8_10 Brass Cleaner]

Richard / Roy

 

I've been having another look at the exhibition photograph - in particular the background. I don't think two three-tonners are being exhibited. The one at the back looks to be a short wheel base lorry with disk wheels - almost certainly a 30cwt type. And it would make sense for Daimler to be exhibiting as many different types as possible, rather than two Y types.

 

But perhaps of more interest is the vehicle on the right. This looks to be Daimler's 40 h.p. agricultural tractor (I attach a picture of one below). A note I have of this type says that it was demonstrated at Lincoln circa August 1914. I've not made the link before, but perhaps here is another connection between Daimler and Fosters? And without War Department interference? Certainly worthy of further investigation...

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]43841[/ATTACH]

 

The trailer is a Foster.

[nz2]

Regards the orginal photo at the show, on the side of the water cooling tower of the tractor on display is faintly a series of markings. The top letters are not clear at all , while the lower section is 64 or 84. This arrangement of lettering would appear to be the same as used by the war office, the top row being O.H.M.S.

There is a series of articles concerning these Foster-Daimler tractors published in the Journal of the Road Loco Society; volume 59, number 1, February 2006 and no 3 August 2006. The associated photographs to the articles clearly show this sign writing and the overall design of the machine. I have not reproduced these as copyright restrictions are given.

 

The second tractor to the rear of the show display, as seen in the orginal photo posted, appears to have much smaller front wheels, a different front cross member, and overall smaller in size. Some where I recall having some material on Daimler tractors of the period, this will need to be located and then hopefully allowing an ID as to the second tractor model.

Doug :nut:

[Roy Larkin]

I think the tractor in the show photograph is the War Office Foster-Daimler tractor. The front axle, light position and the large fuel tank are all identical to a photo I have. Also the size seems the same, using the people as guides. It also has a number on the chimney box which is either 64 or 84 and this is in an identical position and font to my photo which is 62. Mine is an 'Official photograph taken on the Front - a scene on the road'. If the numbering is 62, or even if it is 84 it would seem to date my image to 1915.

[Richard Peskett]

I have looked at my original print, the no. on the side of the heavy tractor is definately 64 and both it and the lettering above have for some reason been partially obliterated ( not done on the original glass plate negative). The other tractor behind is probably very similar to the picture here although this one seems a little worse for wear and the Daimler name top front has again been obliterated for some reason. So far from my collection I have identified four different types of tractor being built at the time, also the first liason with other manufactures was with Clayton and Shuttleworth in 1908. The other lorry in the background may well be a 'CB' 2 ton which would have been in production at the same time , although I am not too sure that the partly visable wheel is part of it, makes it very short wheelbase if so. We are trying to get a copy of the Daimler stand entry from the applicable show catalogue which should answer all.

Richard Peskett.

 

[nz2]

Back to the references from the Road Loco Society. A few points as extracts.

The text shows that 97 were ordered in 1914, for the haulage of 15" howitzers.They were built by Fosters with a sleeve valved, 6 cylinder, 16 litre, 105 bhp. engine from Damiler.

Designed to tow 30 to 35 tons on the drawbar.

The rear wheels are 8 foot in diameter, and a winch on board had a pulling capacity of 16,000lbs.

 

Are there any of these machines remaining?

Doug

[Runflat]

I've now carried out some more research into these photographs. The 40 h.p. tractor was written-up in the August 19th, 1914 edition of Motor Traction, which concludes with the confirmation that the machine, with the exception of the engine, was indeed constructed by Messrs. William Foster and Co. Ltd.

 

 

In its June 23rd, 1915 edition, the magazine provides a preview to the R.A.S.E. show:

 

The annual show of the Royal Agricultural Society of England will take place this year under circumstances which are not only unusual, but entirely unprecedented in the history of this country. Indeed, the Council may be said to have taken a bold step in deciding to keep to the arrangement despite the unfortunate events associated with the war, and we trust, therefore, that the result will be entirely satisfactory, not only for British agricultural and national interests, but also from the point of view of the Society itself. So far as the motor transport exhibits are concerned, there will be, as was generally anticipated, a falling off in comparison with the last two R.A.S.E. events, which were held at Bristol and Shrewsbury in 1913 and 1914 respectively, due to the abnormal position in which motor manufacturers find themselves. It is a matter of common knowledge that they are occupied to their fullest extent upon the production of vehicles suitable for military transport purposes, and not only is this true in regard to most types of petrol vehicles produced in this country, but it is also true in regard to the manufacture of steam waggons. At one time it was thought these would be shown in considerable numbers, but the display in this section is not likely to be so representative as would have been the case in time of peace; still, those who intend visiting the Royal, which this year will be located from June 29th to July 3rd at Wollaton Pak, Nottingham, should not fail to visit the stands mentioned below. There is the possibility that one or two of these will not be occupied, but this will in no way detract from the interest attaching to the varied collection of machinery for road and farm transport which will be on view...

 

The Daimler Co., Ltd., Coventry, will have three exhibits - a 40 h.p. agricultural tractor, a 2 ton lorry, and a 3 ton lorry. The tractor is extremely powerful and efficient, and will, it is stated, plough twelve acres a day, pulling 7-14 disc ploughs or 4-8 brest ploughs at a depth of 4 1/2in. to 9in., and at a ploughing speed of 2 1/2 miles an hour. This tractor is fitted with a four-cylinder Daimler sleeve valve type of engine. The lorries ae eminently suitable for the transport of farm produce or for the service of milling and other companies. A large number of them, we need scarcely add, are in successful use in connection with military transport, both in this country and on the Continent.

 

 

The following week Motor Traction reported on the show and mentioned both tractors:

 

Daimler Co., Ltd., Daimler Works, Coventry. Stand 236.

 

The 2 and 3 ton lorries exhibited by the Daimler Co. are similar to those which this firm has supplied to the War Department, and in essentials also similar to the famous "B" type chassis that have made the London omnibus of to-day the success that it is. Indeed, it is not too much to say that the "B" type has done more than anything else to revolutionise the motor transport proposition, as those who remember the early struggles of the motor omnibus companies will freely admit. In these, as in all other exhibits by this firm, the Knight sleeve valve engine is employed in connection with live axle worm drive, the clutchshaft and the propeller-shaft being coupled up by leather universal joints, the credit for introducing which must, we believe, be ascribed to the Daimler Co., for their simplicity amounts to something near genius.

 

The gear box can be arranged so as to drive either through spur gearing or through inverted tooth chains. Generally speaking, the company advocates the spur gear for freight transport and chain gear for passenger service or in cases where extreme silence is particularly necessary.

 

Besides its standard lorries, the Daimler Co. is also showing a powerful agricultural petrol tractor with a four-cylinder sleeve valve engine capable of giving off 40 h.p. at 1,000 r.p.m. This engine is similar to that used in the 3 ton lorries, and drives through bevel to a countershaft with sliding spur gears. For hauling on difficult ground a winding drum can be brought into action, and so powerful is this that it can easily haul loads of 8 tons up gradients of 1 in 3. As to its ploughing abilities, the machine is credited with a speed of 2 1/2 miles an hour hauling seven to twelve disc ploughs for four to 8 brest ploughs at a depth of 4 1/2in. to 9in., according to the the land.

 

The big six-cyclinder 105 h.p. tractor drives through a gear box to worm gearing, which drives a countershaft having on its ends pinions that mesh with with big gear rings on the driving wheels. As the worm gear gives a reduction of 18 to 1 and the pinions and and gears 7 1/4 to 1, the power on the 2ft. wide treads of the great 8ft. road wheels must be enormous.

 

Another feature is the winding drum. This is connected to the big gear ring on the driving wheel by a sliding pin, and the gear ring in turn is secured to the road wheel by two sliding locking pins. In going up steep hills, therefore, the locking pin holding drum to gear ring is withdrawn, and the drum being free allows rope to pay out by its own weight. At the top of the hill the gear ring is disconnected from the road wheels by outdrawing the locking pins, and the drum and gear ring are then connected so that the engine can work the gear without turning the road wheels. The tractor itself is said to be able to climb gradients of 1 in 2 1/2, and by these means can with the rope haul up a load of 32 tons.