Fox chassis (without top-heavy turret) - WHERE ARE THEY?

[RCT(V)]

I understand because of the usefulness of a RARDEN 30mm equipped turret - and because of the instability of the top-heavy Fox - the Fox turret (with RARDEN 30mm cannon), were put onto the Scorpion chassis, to produce the SABRE.

 

Some years ago, I saw a number of the Fox chassis without turrets, at Withams. Unfortunately, they had also been stripped of most of the running-gear (engines/gearbox), and internal fittings. I imagine the bare chassis will have gone for scrap by now.

 

It’s suggested that the Fox chassis (without the impediment of a top-heavy turret), would have been a very interesting recce vehicle - much like the original Dingo, and Ferret.

 

QUESTION: Does anyone know what happened to the rest of the Fox fleet “without turrets” ?

[morris c8 fat]

Your not a blond Russian going out with a Liberal Democrat by ay chance?:-D

[handler 69]

Instability :shocked:???? Who says the FOX was unstable...horrible gear boxes yes!! A fox without a turret would look alot like a big wheeled FERRET I reckon.

They tried putting a range of turrets on the Fox for international sales...didn't make much difference, it was a very bad seller!

[RCT(V)]

Instability :shocked:???? Who says the FOX was unstable...horrible gear boxes yes!! A fox without a turret would look alot like a big wheeled FERRET I reckon.

 

They tried putting a range of turrets on the Fox for international sales...didn't make much difference, it was a very bad seller!

 

The Wiki links (below), give interesting information on the alternate turrets/armament that were trialled, and also produced, for a number of markets/customers around the world . . .

 

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“ . . . Scorpion was accepted by the British Army in May 1970, with a contract for 275 which later rose to 313 vehicles”.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FV101_Scorpion

 

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According to Wiki, GB had 200 Fox.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_Armoured_Reconnaissance_Vehicle

 

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Wiki does not state how many Sabre were created, only that:

 

“The marriage of the Fox turret and Scorpion chassis was not successful and Sabre was withdrawn from British Army service in 2004” ?!?!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabre_%28tank%29

 

To my knowledge, the Sabre have not been through “Witham’s”, so hopefully they are all being looked-after/cared-for, in a nice warm hanger somewhere?! :undecided:

 

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Anything other than a much lighter LMG/GPMG turret, would result in the Fox being just as unstable as when fitted with the original 30mm RARDEN turret.

 

Together with the noxious fumes from the 76mm main armament (in the turret from the Scorpion), I can not imagine anyone seriously considering using a top-heavy 76mm Fox in a cross-country situation, or on surfaced roads where greater speeds would be possible.:rolleyes:

 

However, we now find ourselves considering “None-Intensive-Warfare” situations, from (EU/NATO) border controls and (UK) port security - to Afghanistan.

 

I do not know whether anyone (yet) needs any type of vehicle mounting an ex-Scorpion 76mm armed turret. However, I am sure that there are situations where our forces would now be grateful for a (turret-less) Fox chassis recce/liaison vehicle !!

 

As a contingency, insurance, we should have kept all the ex-Scorpion 76mm armed turrets; and, all the (turret-less) Fox chassis - rather than “realise” the marginal monetary benefit from scrapping the Scorpion turrets and/or Fox chassis.

 

I have checked this morning with a scrap merchant in Lincoln, and “bare” aluminium is only fetching £750-00 a ton !!

 

Others better qualified than myself will be able to confirm - but, I imagine it must have cost thousands/tens-of-thousands to cast/forge a Scorpion turret. It must have cost a lot more to manufacture just the (turret-less) Fox chassis - with their Jaguar engine/running-gear/electrics etc. etc.. :mad: :mad:

Edited December 11, 2010 by RCT(V)

[sirhc]

As an owner of 3 Sabres and a Fox, I think I can answer some of your post. Firstly you need to be really careful what you read on the internet as a lot of what's posted on Wikipedia is rubbish.

 

Al CVR hulls and turrets are constructed from welded plate. There is no casting, other than indiviual pieces like the mantlet. There is less material and less welds in a turret than a hull, therefore the hulls are much more expensive to produce.

 

136 Sabres were built, all have been disposed of. A lot went through Withams, the rest were cut up by ABRO. This was done in 2004, other than those which are restored and a few under going restoration, they are all gone.

 

Fox was not a sucessful vehicle in service, they are hard work to keep going and anything which needs repairing is not a simple job. It's much easier to do any job on a CVRT than it is on a Fox. If they had continued to use them without turrets, they would have had to get rid of them when swapping to diesel anyway. There is not a lot of room in the back of a Fox when it's complete.

 

Chris

[RCT(V)]

Chris, thank you for that very informative reply. :-)

 

You have already answered a number of questions, on which I have spent far too much time musing!

 

Do you know what happened to the rest of the Fox ?

 

As an owner of 3 Sabres and a Fox . . . .

 

Chris

 

Respect . . .:bow:

[sirhc]

When the Foxes went for disposal, quite a few were sold less the power pack. They were sold to Ricardo, who were going to fit a diesel and sell them on. This never happened, and Withams bought them. This is where quite a few of the restored ones came from. I don't know where the rest went, but it is something I have been wondering for a while. I am fairly sure they were all scrapped. I very much doubt they are still around, given how fast stuff is disposed of these days. For example the current batch of Bowmanised 432s at Withams.

 

Chris

[robin craig]

Dear RCT(V),

 

could you expound and or explain your interest in the turrets etc etc pls

 

R

[RCT(V)]

Dear RCT(V),

 

could you expound and or explain your interest in the turrets etc etc pls

 

R

 

I am primarily a "Truckie" . . . .

 

Oh! . . . . I’ve arrived “Home” !! (See AVATAR).

 

I only joined the forum a couple of days ago - in search of information on Fox, and surplus Scorpion 76mm turrets . . . .

 

I found this (Militant) thread earlier today - just before lunch time - and, I have thoroughly enjoyed the last 5-6 hours “trawling” through every page.

 

In 1968, studying at the College of Commerce, in Hull, I took the “Queen’s shilling” with the local RCT(V) unit (218 Sqn?), which was equipped with nothing bigger than Bedford RL.

 

In 1970, I started work with Fodens in Sandbach, and continued my TA service with 236 Sqn RCT(V) in Manchester. They had Mk1 Militants, which I enjoyed driving for the short time before I was commissioned in 1971 - and, transferred over to 238 Sqn RCT(V) in Bootle. They also had Militants.

 

I’ve come-over all nostalgic. I think I’ll have to go for a lie-down!

 

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?7394-A.E.C.-Militant-MK-1-Gallery&p=238133#post238133

 

However, I have always been interested in what other kit we have now, and what kit we did have in the (recent) past.

 

My present “Cause Celebre” started over on ARRSE, where I was wondering what had happened to surplus, “redundant”, kit - such as the Scorpion 76mm turrets and/or the Fox chassis once their 30mm turrets had been removed. The subject is occupying my currently underutilised brain - and, always-fertile imagination.

 

http://www.arrse.co.uk/afghanistan/153676-hypothetical-would-scorpion-been-ideal-afghanistan.html

 

I have therefore been very pleased to discover this web-site - with its wealth of knowledge and practical advice. :-)

 

I did spend a term in the Fodens apprenticeship school, stripping/re-assembling their epicyclical gearbox, etc., - why is there always a washer left on the bench?! :-)

 

However, I am not an “engineer”. :-(

 

My primary civilian employment has been within the sales and marketing function, within the automotive manufacturing industry, which then did fully occupy my brain - and, always-fertile imagination.

Edited December 12, 2010 by RCT(V)