RCT(V)

Simon, I do not know if there is any “commonality” (or even if it would be appropriate!), but Withams did strip the recovery equipment from a Foden and were/are selling it separately from the Foden chassis.

Looks like it was the "proto-type" for all those similarly configured Fodens that the Army bought :undecided:

MPH, Can you please itemise all the "Humber bits and pieces (you wish) to get rid of" ?! Photos would also be helpful - of the bits and pieces, and the result of your “9 year restoration” :-) RCT(V)

Yup! Confirmation also from this "call sign" . . . still reading with interest and fascination, as well as admiration for you enthusiasm and dedication

I am pretty sure this web-site does not object to the mention of other web-sites . . . :shocked: Can I suggest you will find some answers to your questions if you try <ARRSE> . . . Postscript: It is over forty years ago now, but I seem to remember the registration number 42EL51. That would only be from when I was a Lt with 238 Sqn RCT(V), in Bootle !!

Whoa! That must have hurt !!

Simon, that seems somewhat of an “odd” pairing - if the previous owner Richard Grovenor (or, subsequent owner Dave Crouch), ever did show/exhibit the pair together?! I would have expected the Mk1 Militant to have been paired with a 5.5” gun, or maybe a Bofors AA. I was working for Fodens during the 1970s, when they were producing the “tractor” specifically for the (relatively modern) FH70.

Conversely - if I remember correctly - the original Foden (‘s own) twelve speed epicyclical gear-box, would/might also have had a clutch-stop, which DID require you to press the clutch to the floor (as I understand it), to slow/stop the clutch rotating and so assist when changing up through the gearbox.

My apologies if the quotations I lifted from “another place”, have caused offence. There was certainly NO intention of casting aspersions on the professionalism of the Service Armourers and/or store men . . . past or present! :-( As you will gather from my “User Name”, I had a long association with Prince William of Gloucester Barracks, and most of the “Independent” RCT TA Regiments - as a TA Officer and, on two occasions as a TA Officer serving as the Depot Adjutant . . . when the Regular Army couldn’t find one of their own :-) I always had every confidence in the weapons with which I was/we were issued, on range days when they would be fired, and for field exercises when they would (generally) not have been expected to be fired. I was also very pleased with the standard/ordinary Browning with which I was issued before deploying to Bosnia . . . It was however rather irksome, to see that the nursing officer in the queue ahead of my receive a Browning pistol with “Gucci” adjustable sights and wooden grips - which would been wasted, stored in the armoury in her B-i-H location, for the duration of her deployment! :-( I was alarmed by the “rumour” started at the beginning of this thread, of the impending removal from service of the Browning L9. All things mechanical can/do eventually wear-out, including individual weapons that may have been heavily used and/or abused. However, other than those individual pistols, I did not (still do not) see why our use of the Browning L9 would cease. The information repeated below, is certainly NOT my personal opinion. I went in search of information pertaining to the Browning L9, on another web-site frequented by a number of currently serving, and former, service personnel. The intention of (re-)posting the information, is that (I hope), it adds to the discussion as to whether we will/should replace the Browning as our "general" service pistol. :-) http://www.arrse.co.uk/shooting-hunting-fishing/154541-sig-p226-replace-browning-hi-power.html As mentioned a couple of posts back, I did post earlier - and, correctly attribute (as above), the source of my information - freely available to anyone on the inter-web / world-wide-net “thingy”. However, I did not appreciate my earlier/original post had been deleted by problems with this forum’s server, earlier today. I had thought my earlier/original post had been deleted because I had contravened a forum rule - with which I am still becoming familiar! Hence the abbreviated response I posted earlier, and for which (I again) apologise, if it has caused offence!

Thanks for that reply Chris. As you will presumably wish to have a “matching-pair”, I will leave the way clear for you to purchase “48 AT 12”, should it ever appear in Withams yard! :-)

Fascinating! :-) Should “48 AT 12” ever appear in Withams yard, I do not think I would have any reservations about buying it! Does anyone know if a different type of engine is installed . . . diesel maybe? :undecided: I tried “freeze-framing” it at the appropriate times . . . I did not recognise the rocker-cover on the engine that came out as being a Jaguar item. Unless it was removed between frames, the engine that came out did not have a turbo-charger. However, that engine that went in did appear to have a turbo-charger fitted - on the left of the engine.

I was sure that this morning, I had posted an informed and well-reasoned response to this thread ?! :undecided: It is my understanding that “ . . . the L9s in armouries all over the country have been in service for decades, absolutely donkeys' years, used and abused and frequently poorly maintained. After 20 or 30 years of nuggets not cleaning them and letting the hammers slam down rather than controlling them they are a little worse for wear and need replacing. AIUI the SIG was a UOR for Afghanistan because there weren't enough serviceable L9s”. It is understood “ . . that when the Afghan draw-down begins, every UOR item will be withdrawn and flogged off by HMG. The brief "age of the pistol" will also evaporate, and it will revert to case of a few L9s being kept in armouries for the CO and medics. There are quite enough decent L9s left for that sort of scale of issue”. So, in a matter of time (post 2014?), it may be easier to acquire an ex-Afghanistan SIG SAUER P226 (plus, numerous expensively sourced sand-coloured vehicles), than it will be to acquire a Browning! :-)

It might be worth searching the world-wide-net, inter-web, "thingy" - to see if you can down-load a recording of it, or even watch it “live” on-line ?!

Is that meant to be 0755hrs, or 1955hrs ? Thanks for the tip - I'll watch at both times, to ensure I don't miss anything !

Eh! Where, when, why, did that happen? :-)

I am primarily a "Truckie" . . . . However, I have always been interested in what other kit we have now, and what kit we did have in the (recent) past. My present “Cause Celebre” started over on ARRSE, where I was wondering what had happened to surplus, “redundant”, kit - such as the Scorpion 76mm turrets and/or the Fox chassis once their 30mm turrets had been removed. The subject is occupying my currently underutilised brain - and, always-fertile imagination. http://www.arrse.co.uk/afghanistan/153676-hypothetical-would-scorpion-been-ideal-afghanistan.html I have therefore been very pleased to discover this web-site - with its wealth of knowledge and practical advice. :-) I did spend a term in the Fodens apprenticeship school, stripping/re-assembling their epicyclical gearbox, etc., - why is there always a washer left on the bench?! :-) However, I am not an “engineer”. :-( My primary civilian employment has been within the sales and marketing function, within the automotive manufacturing industry, which then did fully occupy my brain - and, always-fertile imagination.

Chris, thank you for that very informative reply. :-) You have already answered a number of questions, on which I have spent far too much time musing! Do you know what happened to the rest of the Fox ? Respect . . .:bow:

Oh! . . . . I’ve arrived “Home” !! (See AVATAR). :-) I only joined the forum a couple of days ago - in search of information on Fox, and surplus Scorpion 76mm turrets. http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?21881-Fox-chassis-%28without-top-heavy-turret%29-WHERE-ARE-THEY&p=238074#post238074 http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?21880-ex-Scorpions-76mm-turrets-WHERE-ARE-THEY I found this thread earlier today - just before lunch time - and, I have thoroughly enjoyed the last 5-6 hours “trawling” through every page. In 1968, studying at the College of Commerce, in Hull, I took the “Queen’s shilling” with the local RCT(V) unit (218 Sqn?), which was equipped with nothing bigger than Bedford RL. In 1970, I started work with Fodens in Sandbach, and continued my TA service with 236 Sqn RCT(V) in Manchester. They had Mk1 Militants, which I enjoyed driving for the short time before I was commissioned in 1971 - and, transferred over to 238 Sqn RCT(V) in Bootle. They also had Militants. I’ve come-over all nostalgic. I think I’ll have to go for a lie-down! :-)

Take that idea one step further - with something (winch?) to load/unload the flat-bed "body" - and you would have DROPS ! :-) http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll21/ANDYSCAMMELL/Foden/DSC03434.jpg

The Wiki links (below), give interesting information on the alternate turrets/armament that were trialled, and also produced, for a number of markets/customers around the world . . . + + + + + + + + + “ . . . Scorpion was accepted by the British Army in May 1970, with a contract for 275 which later rose to 313 vehicles”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FV101_Scorpion + + + + + + + + + + According to Wiki, GB had 200 Fox. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_Armoured_Reconnaissance_Vehicle + + + + + + + + + + Wiki does not state how many Sabre were created, only that: “The marriage of the Fox turret and Scorpion chassis was not successful and Sabre was withdrawn from British Army service in 2004” ?!?! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabre_%28tank%29 To my knowledge, the Sabre have not been through “Witham’s”, so hopefully they are all being looked-after/cared-for, in a nice warm hanger somewhere?! :undecided: + + + + + + + + + + + Anything other than a much lighter LMG/GPMG turret, would result in the Fox being just as unstable as when fitted with the original 30mm RARDEN turret. Together with the noxious fumes from the 76mm main armament (in the turret from the Scorpion), I can not imagine anyone seriously considering using a top-heavy 76mm Fox in a cross-country situation, or on surfaced roads where greater speeds would be possible.:rolleyes: However, we now find ourselves considering “None-Intensive-Warfare” situations, from (EU/NATO) border controls and (UK) port security - to Afghanistan. I do not know whether anyone (yet) needs any type of vehicle mounting an ex-Scorpion 76mm armed turret. However, I am sure that there are situations where our forces would now be grateful for a (turret-less) Fox chassis recce/liaison vehicle !! As a contingency, insurance, we should have kept all the ex-Scorpion 76mm armed turrets; and, all the (turret-less) Fox chassis - rather than “realise” the marginal monetary benefit from scrapping the Scorpion turrets and/or Fox chassis. I have checked this morning with a scrap merchant in Lincoln, and “bare” aluminium is only fetching £750-00 a ton !! Others better qualified than myself will be able to confirm - but, I imagine it must have cost thousands/tens-of-thousands to cast/forge a Scorpion turret. It must have cost a lot more to manufacture just the (turret-less) Fox chassis - with their Jaguar engine/running-gear/electrics etc. etc.. :mad: :mad:

Bob, do you have any further information of those? Anything other than a much lighter LMG/GPMG turret, would result in the Fox being just as unstable as when fitted with the original 30mm RARDEN turret. With the noxious fumes from the 76mm main armament (in the turret from the Scorpion), I can not imagine anyone seriously considering using a top-heavy 76mm Fox in a cross-country situation, or on surfaced roads where greater speeds would be possible - and a problem. A top-heavy 76mm Fox - quite literally - must have been one “bastard” of a vehicle, and a complete waste, abuse of, the otherwise very fine Fox wheeled chassis! :mad: However, it might possibly be an ideal candidate for collectors, and used as a static display. Hours could be spent having to explain the convoluted history/pedigree of a 76mm Fox !! :-) I am curious, and will send a PM. Cheers.

I understand because of the usefulness of a RARDEN 30mm equipped turret - and because of the instability of the top-heavy Fox - the Fox turret (with RARDEN 30mm cannon), were put onto the Scorpion chassis, to produce the SABRE. Some years ago, I saw a number of the Fox chassis without turrets, at Withams. Unfortunately, they had also been stripped of most of the running-gear (engines/gearbox), and internal fittings. I imagine the bare chassis will have gone for scrap by now. It’s suggested that the Fox chassis (without the impediment of a top-heavy turret), would have been a very interesting recce vehicle - much like the original Dingo, and Ferret. QUESTION: Does anyone know what happened to the rest of the Fox fleet “without turrets” ?

I understand because of the usefulness of a RARDEN 30mm equipped turret - and because of the instability of the top-heavy Fox - the Fox turret (with RARDEN 30mm cannon), were put onto the Scorpion chassis, to produce the SABRE. All the ex-Scorpions' 76mm turrets must be sitting around somewhere, waiting for someone to come up with a good idea of how/where to use/mount them ! QUESTION: Does anyone know where the ex-Scorpions' 76mm turrets are stored?