MB torque reaction spring

[KMF]

can anyone out there coment on this strange shaped spring :confused:

[Nick Johns]

can anyone out there coment on this strange shaped spring :confused:

The reason for the bend is to prevent the common Jeep "lean" to the nearside, caused by the torque spring pulling against the main spring, holding the spring under tension, I've seen a modified longer shackles fitted which also cures the problem

Edited August 30, 2010 by Nick Johns

[gazzaw]

hi guys

 

any more on this type of spring and where to get them, my jeep has a lot of lean and this might help it

 

Gary

[Nick Johns]

hi guys

 

any more on this type of spring and where to get them, my jeep has a lot of lean and this might help it

 

Gary

Never seen this modification before, I imagine its a case of get large gas torch and heat spring !

[KMF]

Not quite so simple, if you take a torch to spring steel you will alter its properties, it has to be heated and tempered once you have altered its shape. Perhaps easier to just take it to a spring manufacturer with some alteration dimentions and they will easily modify it for you

[Willyslancs]

is this the one you told me about Keith?.......

[deadline]

INCORRECT.

 

The torque reaction spring is the alleviate the turning of the jeep inherent in the axle mounted steering joint.

 

Without the TRS, when the brakes are applied the axle rotates in relation to the steering linkage and causes the wheels to turn. The only way they could alleviate the brake induced turning is be either redesigning the axles and steering linkage or try and eliminate the axle roll.

 

That particular jeep is FUBAR. The TRS is a flat bar, no bend to it. Seems like they cobbled it together because they are missing some parts of the rear spring shackle/mount.

 

The *ONLY* way to correct the jeep lean is to re-arch all the springs to the correct eye to eye distance. Done all the time.

 

It appears that this jeeps TRS is either to short, or the spring hanger/shackels are assembled wrong.

Edited September 1, 2010 by deadline

[deadline]

SNL-G-503 page 191 is the proper assembly.

[Nick Johns]

 

The *ONLY* way to correct the jeep lean is to re-arch all the springs to the correct eye to eye distance. Done all the time.

.

The torque spring is correctly fitted, the *ONLY* other way as I said previous, and as also discussed on G503 forum, is lengthening the torque spring shackle which alleviates the tension on the main spring, which overtime pulls it flat, modified lengthened shackles were being sold by a Jeep spares dealer

Edited September 1, 2010 by Nick Johns

[KMF]

Thanks for all the coments, this jeep is up for sale and looks like a very nice restoration. This spring does cause reason for concern tho. So the bottom line would you purchase a car with a spring like this. Is it a bodge up or a simple and clever solution to a common problem. Many thanks for all the constructive coments

[Willyslancs]

keith , any more pics mate ?......

[Nick Johns]

a simple and clever solution to a common problem.

Just that !

[deadline]

The torque spring is correctly fitted, the *ONLY* other way as I said previous, and as also discussed on G503 forum, is lengthening the torque spring shackle which alleviates the tension on the main spring, which overtime pulls it flat, modified lengthened shackles were being sold by a Jeep spares dealer

 

No part of that TRS is is correct. Please refer to the SNL page I references. There is no bend at all. Also, in a correct assembly the TRS linkages are to the REAR of the spring bracket, not the front. Now the links could be 'forward' due to the incorrect length/bend of the TRS, but nothing in any TM shows a TRS with a bend.

 

There is no way an axle puts torque on a spring to 'flatten' it. Springs lose their set by, well, springing. Most springs fail because the shocks (whose only purpose is to dampen the springs oscillations) are bad and allow the springs to fatigue. Look at how the TRS is connected to the axle and frame, and explain how any support to the spring is supplied? I can quite easily explain how it provides anti-roll support to the axle.

 

In a modern muscle car, these type of TRS are mounted to the rear axle and are known as 'slapper bars'. Again, the job it to prevent axle roll, not support any spring.. even though they are mounted to the springs.

 

You can bolt all the steel plates you want to a jeep spring and it will still lose its arch and cause the 'lean'. No amount of 'jeep special vendor' linkages will alleviate that problem. Simply because the TRS is not about the springs, its about the AXLE and not allowing it to rotate during braking and cause the previously mentioned 'brake turn'.

 

This is all very well explained in an issue of Army Motors, IIRC. The real one.

 

And if I may, who are these vendors that sell special jeep spring un-flattening links?

[deadline]

I believe the AUGUST 43 issue of Army Motors that discusses the TRS.

[KMF]

Many hhanks for your coment, perhaps it is as previously mentioned, a longer TRS shackel is needed if thespring set isnot correct. Or if it were possible to design and manufacture a set of adjustable TRS shackels, that way as the set is lost from a spring and a jeep starts to lean the shackel could be adjusted to prevent the lean, it is not rocket science i am sure some bright person with manufacturing facilities could come up with an adjustable shackel

[Jessie The Jeep]

Here's the one on my Jeep. (Arrows just point to the grease nipples). You can see that the hangar for the lower spring is much more vertical in my picture, compared to pointing well forwards on the original picture posted.

 

[deadline]

The length of the shackle, and the TRS have *NOTHING* to do with the springs settling.

 

The TRS has NOTHING to do with the spring other than it's mounted to it. The TRS prevents the axle from rotating during braking. If you like (and are careful during the test drive) take it off and hit the brakes from say 30MPH. You will feel the steering wheel fight you as the linkage is moved by the axle. If you are ready for it its not a big deal. If you are not you will swerve pretty violently.

 

There is still a bit of a mystery as to why the jeep leans... most say its because the fuel and driver are all on that side. Others say the engine is slightly offset to the left. Its rare to find a jeep leaning to the right.

 

I hope this clears it up. The main concern is the jeep in the first post... that is not right and I'm not sure how you'd figure that bending 1/4in steel is the solution to this problem.

 

New TRS are fairly inexpensive.

[gritineye]

Interesting thread re torque/ braking reaction of a driven front axle, and the purpose of the lower spring.

 

At extreme axle movements, for instance one wheel in a ditch or vehicle high centered, and the springs are 'loose' it is possible for the front propshaft UJ to be damaged without some sort control arm.

 

The driver will often try rocking the vehicle to and fro thus causing the axle to rotate quite violently causing the UJ to break unless some restriction is fitted.

Edited September 2, 2010 by gritineye

[deadline]

The front drive shaft is articulated by U joints and sliding yoke. Its fully able to take the any movement up to and including the axle bumper hitting the frame, and at least a foot side to side.

 

The springs DO prevent movement front to back but if you have significant movement then something will break besides the front drive shaft.

 

The TRS was a unique solution to a specific vehicles unique (and somewhat deficient) steering linkage problem. Only the G503 has them. I know of no other WWII MV that uses them. For whatever reason the 'jeep' was designed with this flaw.

 

CJ2s did not suffer from this issue.. they redid the steering knuckles are moved the steering arm from the top to the middle of the knuckle. They also dropped the TRS.

 

Also, if the TRS had anything to do with positioning the axle, wouldn't they be needed on both sides? The driveshaft is not structural (its a thin walled tube with yokes welded on). And wouldn't you also need them on the rear axle? They're no additional supports because they are not needed. The springs absorb axle shock (caused by the ground). The TRS is only there to keep the steering linkage steady.

Edited September 2, 2010 by deadline

[deadline]

Here is the article from April 1944 Army Motors:

 

http://www.42fordgpw.com/hurry.html

 

read this and you will get the dope on the TRS.

 

You can DL the April 1944 Army Motors from:

 

http://www.tm9-801.com/ArmyMotors/index.php

[gritineye]

Thanks for the link deadline, learn something every day on here, I understand now!

 

Perhaps what I should have said was, in those far off days when determined efforts to destroy wartime jeeps in AWDC off road trials where still happening, TRS was not understood (by some of us who drove other makes) and seen as a restriction to axle travel, which we where always trying to improve!

 

As other types of vehicles did break UJs due to front axle windup, and we could not see any other reason for the TRS, the conclusion we came to was that it was there to prevent this happening.

 

Hate to do this on a Jeep thread, but leaf sprung LRs had different hieght springs to counter the lean to one side: http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/spring_rates.htm

[deadline]

Interesting LR article. Yes, you can use different weight weighted springs to support a vehicle, but the article shows that its a convoluted mess of weight, ride and many different springs. One spring set will not be the best (or give the 'flat' stance of another at different loads.

 

I think the jeep and LR share the common problem that the fuel is concentrated on one side (up to 150lbs of fuel) and driver (up to 180-200lb) plus engine (front axles weight) tire out the front left spring much quicker than any other.

 

A little tidbit I picked up was that the reason the fuel tank is under the driver and not the passenger seat (and thus leveling the load) was that it would allow for two 'kill shots' on a jeep: hit the driver, or the fuel tank, either ones disables a jeep. With the driver on top of the fuel tank there is one less 'kill shot' zone.

 

Sounds like a good enough reason to me.